82 Discussions
Hey all,
I'm doing the Heisig Kanji course by TL-SweetFaceCake (thank you dude, much appreciated). I'm learning a lot!
I was wondering though: I thought the purpose of the Heisig method was to NOT learn kana readings, only kanji and pictorial meanings? I agree with this principle: it's much easier.
So I was just wondering if there was any way to NOT be tested on kana readings of kanji? Maybe some way to turn them off, and then turn them on again when the meanings of all 2045 kanji are done?
I tried Googling and searching the forum for this topic before, but I couldn't find anything this specific. So sorry if I'm repeating something that's been covered already.
Thanks in advance dudes!
I'm doing the Heisig Kanji course by TL-SweetFaceCake (thank you dude, much appreciated). I'm learning a lot!
I was wondering though: I thought the purpose of the Heisig method was to NOT learn kana readings, only kanji and pictorial meanings? I agree with this principle: it's much easier.
So I was just wondering if there was any way to NOT be tested on kana readings of kanji? Maybe some way to turn them off, and then turn them on again when the meanings of all 2045 kanji are done?
I tried Googling and searching the forum for this topic before, but I couldn't find anything this specific. So sorry if I'm repeating something that's been covered already.
Thanks in advance dudes!
0 comments
Here's a list of words with Something (TM) wrong with them:
http://www.memrise.com/item... (incorrect kanji/kana separation)
http://www.memrise.com/item... placement of kanji in kana; kana (そだてる) not entered
http://www.memrise.com/item... (incorrect kana; kana should be へんげ)
http://www.memrise.com/item... http://www.memrise.com/item... have the exact same English, making them impossible to tell apart
I'll post more as/if I find them.
http://www.memrise.com/item... (incorrect kanji/kana separation)
http://www.memrise.com/item... placement of kanji in kana; kana (そだてる) not entered
http://www.memrise.com/item... (incorrect kana; kana should be へんげ)
http://www.memrise.com/item... http://www.memrise.com/item... have the exact same English, making them impossible to tell apart
I'll post more as/if I find them.
137 comments
Latest 2 hours, 9 minutes ago
dready 1 month ago
http://www.memrise.com/item... kana/no kanji; kana should be "このあいだ" and Kanji should be "この間")
http://www.memrise.com/item... kana/no kanji; kana should be "このあいだ" and Kanji should be "この間")
Tchael 1 month ago
Thank you, I have gone through and fixed them all. I took your word on the corrections because it's 2am and I couldn't be too bothered to check each one throughout. Just looked it up in Jiten for a brief momenta and made the change.
I changed 校庭to Schoolyard; Campus so that they will not be confused. Also because I know 湖底 as being related to a school campus anyways. So to me it makes more sense...
Thank you for the corrections - if you see any more feel free to point them out and I'll correct them ASAP.
Thank you, I have gone through and fixed them all. I took your word on the corrections because it's 2am and I couldn't be too bothered to check each one throughout. Just looked it up in Jiten for a brief momenta and made the change.
I changed 校庭to Schoolyard; Campus so that they will not be confused. Also because I know 湖底 as being related to a school campus anyways. So to me it makes more sense...
Thank you for the corrections - if you see any more feel free to point them out and I'll correct them ASAP.
jlptbootcamp 1 month ago
I changed 校庭 to just 'schoolyard' to conform to conventions (one word for English defn). Sorry, Tchael! I put campus as an alternative though.
I changed 校庭 to just 'schoolyard' to conform to conventions (one word for English defn). Sorry, Tchael! I put campus as an alternative though.
Tchael 1 month ago
Totally forgot about that convention. ;-; Was like 3AM for me making the changes.
Totally forgot about that convention. ;-; Was like 3AM for me making the changes.
dready 1 month ago
http://www.memrise.com/item... erroneously includes "free of charge" in the definition; I can't find any substantiating definition elsewhere, and it seems that "only/merely" is the correct definition.
http://www.memrise.com/item... unrepentant dot
http://www.memrise.com/item... "cross" seems a bit vague; "crossing" may more accurately reflect the meaning. Editor's discretion, my dos cents.
Thanks again in advance.
http://www.memrise.com/item... erroneously includes "free of charge" in the definition; I can't find any substantiating definition elsewhere, and it seems that "only/merely" is the correct definition.
http://www.memrise.com/item... unrepentant dot
http://www.memrise.com/item... "cross" seems a bit vague; "crossing" may more accurately reflect the meaning. Editor's discretion, my dos cents.
Thanks again in advance.
Tchael 1 month ago
I'll leave it up to someone else for the "free of charge" decision although I cannot find it either...
I fixed the other two.
"link dos" completely confused me. XD
I'll leave it up to someone else for the "free of charge" decision although I cannot find it either...
I fixed the other two.
"link dos" completely confused me. XD
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month ago
What do people think about すごい having a main definition of "terrible?" http://www.memrise.com/item...
JDIC and dictionaries list that as its main definition, but in modern Japanese, everyone uses it to mean "cool, awesome, terrific." You guys think that entry should be changed?
What do people think about すごい having a main definition of "terrible?" http://www.memrise.com/item...
JDIC and dictionaries list that as its main definition, but in modern Japanese, everyone uses it to mean "cool, awesome, terrific." You guys think that entry should be changed?
Tchael 1 month ago
I have never heard one instance of すごい being used to mean "terrible".
恐ろしい comes to mind when I think "terrible".
I have never heard one instance of すごい being used to mean "terrible".
恐ろしい comes to mind when I think "terrible".
jlptbootcamp 1 month ago
Yeah, I think amazing or great would be a good translation. It is pretty commonly used so that shouldn't be an issue.
Just so everyone knows, the 20,000+ most common words from the WWWJDIC have been 'scrapped' and uploaded. For the formatting process we just took the first definition in the dictionary as the main one figuring we would fine tune the data once it got into place. These words are slowly being merged with all the words in all the courses, so we can add parts of speech and kanji. When that happens, the main definition gets put in there. I'll sometimes catch it and try to edit it to be something more natural but there are literally thousands of words we are moderating so there are bound to be a few missed here and there.
Also, what the moderators consider natural or the best translation might not be what you think it is, so it is great to hear your feedback.
So, by all means, keep bringing these up and let's discuss them here in the forums. Thanks TL-ShadowDragon for posting this here!
Yeah, I think amazing or great would be a good translation. It is pretty commonly used so that shouldn't be an issue.
Just so everyone knows, the 20,000+ most common words from the WWWJDIC have been 'scrapped' and uploaded. For the formatting process we just took the first definition in the dictionary as the main one figuring we would fine tune the data once it got into place. These words are slowly being merged with all the words in all the courses, so we can add parts of speech and kanji. When that happens, the main definition gets put in there. I'll sometimes catch it and try to edit it to be something more natural but there are literally thousands of words we are moderating so there are bound to be a few missed here and there.
Also, what the moderators consider natural or the best translation might not be what you think it is, so it is great to hear your feedback.
So, by all means, keep bringing these up and let's discuss them here in the forums. Thanks TL-ShadowDragon for posting this here!
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month ago
Thanks for the explanation, that makes perfect sense. 99% of the time, the first definition in JDIC is the most common so we shouldn't find too many of these in the long run.
Thanks for the explanation, that makes perfect sense. 99% of the time, the first definition in JDIC is the most common so we shouldn't find too many of these in the long run.
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month ago
http://www.memrise.com/item... to be changed. 明確にする is "to define" and seems to be the most common usage of the word, but 明確 by itself is an adjective.
"Definite" seems like a good English adjective for it.
http://www.memrise.com/item... to be changed. 明確にする is "to define" and seems to be the most common usage of the word, but 明確 by itself is an adjective.
"Definite" seems like a good English adjective for it.
jlptbootcamp 1 month ago
I changed it to definite because that seems clear enough. It is also sometimes translated as precise or clear. 'define' is definitely wrong so had to change it from that. Anybody else want to weigh in?
I changed it to definite because that seems clear enough. It is also sometimes translated as precise or clear. 'define' is definitely wrong so had to change it from that. Anybody else want to weigh in?
dready 1 month ago
http://www.memrise.com/item... should probably include that it's a transitive verb, otherwise it's essentially not possible to distinguish from とける
Though I've already complained about http://www.memrise.com/item... it appears to be a dupe of the more-accurate http://www.memrise.com/item... . I'd delete the first entry and add the second to this course.
http://www.memrise.com/item... is all sorts of ???. The kanji and kana are switched; the kanji is... not correct. 出来る seems to fit what's sought.
http://www.memrise.com/item... definition is confusing/incorrect. 留まる is to be stopped, not to be fixed. 留まる does not mean to stay; 泊まる does. (Also, I disagree with using 留 for the kanji here; 止 seems much more standard.)
http://www.memrise.com/item... and http://www.memrise.com/item... are indistinguishable dupes.
And that's all for today's edition of "Oh Everybody Sing It Right Back, I Correct It Like That."
http://www.memrise.com/item... should probably include that it's a transitive verb, otherwise it's essentially not possible to distinguish from とける
Though I've already complained about http://www.memrise.com/item... it appears to be a dupe of the more-accurate http://www.memrise.com/item... . I'd delete the first entry and add the second to this course.
http://www.memrise.com/item... is all sorts of ???. The kanji and kana are switched; the kanji is... not correct. 出来る seems to fit what's sought.
http://www.memrise.com/item... definition is confusing/incorrect. 留まる is to be stopped, not to be fixed. 留まる does not mean to stay; 泊まる does. (Also, I disagree with using 留 for the kanji here; 止 seems much more standard.)
http://www.memrise.com/item... and http://www.memrise.com/item... are indistinguishable dupes.
And that's all for today's edition of "Oh Everybody Sing It Right Back, I Correct It Like That."
jlptbootcamp 1 month ago
Wow, what a mess some of these are.
Okay, I fixed most everything. I changed 留まる to 止まる with an English definition of stop (moving). It can actually be both 'to be stopped' and 'to stop' so I settled on the simpler of the two.
As for the dupes getting merged, we have to do that in the moderating panel which right now is not very shall we say granular? I can't merge specific words at the moment, it just gives us a random queue to moderate. Yes, this is troublesome, but we have to live with it until they change over to the new wiki system, then we might be able to add some better more specific controls. Right now there are literally thousands of dupes so we are doing our best to sort through them, sorry about the delay.
dready, you seem to be fairly active, do you want to just be a curator so you can make some of these quick, obvious fixes yourself? You don't have to commit any extra time out of your day.
Wow, what a mess some of these are.
Okay, I fixed most everything. I changed 留まる to 止まる with an English definition of stop (moving). It can actually be both 'to be stopped' and 'to stop' so I settled on the simpler of the two.
As for the dupes getting merged, we have to do that in the moderating panel which right now is not very shall we say granular? I can't merge specific words at the moment, it just gives us a random queue to moderate. Yes, this is troublesome, but we have to live with it until they change over to the new wiki system, then we might be able to add some better more specific controls. Right now there are literally thousands of dupes so we are doing our best to sort through them, sorry about the delay.
dready, you seem to be fairly active, do you want to just be a curator so you can make some of these quick, obvious fixes yourself? You don't have to commit any extra time out of your day.
dready 1 month ago
Oh Japanese, why are your transitive, intransitive, and passive verbs so horribly horribly intertwined?
I'm currently studying for the N2, which means I'm trying to get through 60 - 80 words a day, in order to have finished the Community Moderated Course by July, which is why you're seeing such a volume from me. I wouldn't mind just fixing them myself; I'd keep a log, so it's obvious what I'm doing.
Oh Japanese, why are your transitive, intransitive, and passive verbs so horribly horribly intertwined?
I'm currently studying for the N2, which means I'm trying to get through 60 - 80 words a day, in order to have finished the Community Moderated Course by July, which is why you're seeing such a volume from me. I wouldn't mind just fixing them myself; I'd keep a log, so it's obvious what I'm doing.
jlptbootcamp 1 month ago
You don't really need to keep a log when you're changing things as long as it's basic stuff like adding parts of speech and changing around mangled characters. If I were you, I'd either shoot Ben an email (ben@memrise.com) or maybe he'll swoop in here and grant you access if you want it.
If there is anything that could possibly be up for debate it is probably best to post it here in the forums either as a separate subject or in this feed since there are a lot of people 'listening'.
You don't really need to keep a log when you're changing things as long as it's basic stuff like adding parts of speech and changing around mangled characters. If I were you, I'd either shoot Ben an email (ben@memrise.com) or maybe he'll swoop in here and grant you access if you want it.
If there is anything that could possibly be up for debate it is probably best to post it here in the forums either as a separate subject or in this feed since there are a lot of people 'listening'.
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
It looks like せんしゅう（先週） got merged with ぜんしゅう（前週） even though the latter is archaic. せんしゅう is listed as an alternative, although the kanji test won't accept 先週.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
It looks like せんしゅう（先週） got merged with ぜんしゅう（前週） even though the latter is archaic. せんしゅう is listed as an alternative, although the kanji test won't accept 先週.
jlptbootcamp 4 weeks ago
Fixed 先週 I'm not sure how that happened. I bit strange for something archaic to sneak its way in.
Fixed 先週 I'm not sure how that happened. I bit strange for something archaic to sneak its way in.
dready 4 weeks ago
Let's have a conversation about 製作, 生産, and 製造. I our dictionary, they're all defined as, essentially, "manufacture, production." Is there any way to easily differentiate these words?
After checking some dictionaries and talking with some native Japanese speakers, I would think these English translations would work best for understanding:
製作 - manufacture, production (usually works of art)
生産 - manufacture, production (usually daily-use goods or services)
製造 - manufacture, production (usually consumer products)
These definitions may be too specific, but right now they're too general to work appropriately with Memrise's learning algorithm. I'd like to hear other's input.
Let's have a conversation about 製作, 生産, and 製造. I our dictionary, they're all defined as, essentially, "manufacture, production." Is there any way to easily differentiate these words?
After checking some dictionaries and talking with some native Japanese speakers, I would think these English translations would work best for understanding:
製作 - manufacture, production (usually works of art)
生産 - manufacture, production (usually daily-use goods or services)
製造 - manufacture, production (usually consumer products)
These definitions may be too specific, but right now they're too general to work appropriately with Memrise's learning algorithm. I'd like to hear other's input.
jlptbootcamp 4 weeks ago
In my experience, 製作 and 製造 mean almost the same thing. The first one, 製作, can maybe be translated as fabrication, but is definitely used in industrial manufacturing not works of art. It can be used for movie producing as well.
生産 is more used for output of a factory, how many widgets can it make a month and stuff like that.
That's as far as I know and what I could find from translations and such. Haven't checked with any natives though.
In my experience, 製作 and 製造 mean almost the same thing. The first one, 製作, can maybe be translated as fabrication, but is definitely used in industrial manufacturing not works of art. It can be used for movie producing as well.
生産 is more used for output of a factory, how many widgets can it make a month and stuff like that.
That's as far as I know and what I could find from translations and such. Haven't checked with any natives though.
jlptbootcamp 4 weeks ago
I should add that fabrication would cover some arty things like statues and paintings, because a fabricated item is made with skill or art as opposed to a manufactured item that is made with manual labor.
I should add that fabrication would cover some arty things like statues and paintings, because a fabricated item is made with skill or art as opposed to a manufactured item that is made with manual labor.
dready 4 weeks ago
Yeah, as I said they may be too specific, but there should be some sort of easily identifiable English difference between them so that when users are asked to define "manufacture, production" they know which word memrise is asking for.
Looking at kotobank.jp definitions, 製作 is kind of "making things with tools; making movies 'n stuff; making art 'n stuff," 生産 seems to point towards the making of things be items used in daily life (生活資料), and mentions services (like traffic services) as being included in 生産, and 製造, when I asked a native speaker, seemed to be related to mass-produced goods not used for consumption (eg: electronics, was her example), though kotobank.jp leads me to believe it could be anything.
I like the idea of adding fabrication to 製作 (eg: manufacturing, production, fabrication), that seems to fit nicely. Do you think keeping 製造 as "manufacturing" and making 生産 to "manufacturing, production, providing service" would be a clear and (most importantly) accurate change?
Yeah, as I said they may be too specific, but there should be some sort of easily identifiable English difference between them so that when users are asked to define "manufacture, production" they know which word memrise is asking for.
Looking at kotobank.jp definitions, 製作 is kind of "making things with tools; making movies 'n stuff; making art 'n stuff," 生産 seems to point towards the making of things be items used in daily life (生活資料), and mentions services (like traffic services) as being included in 生産, and 製造, when I asked a native speaker, seemed to be related to mass-produced goods not used for consumption (eg: electronics, was her example), though kotobank.jp leads me to believe it could be anything.
I like the idea of adding fabrication to 製作 (eg: manufacturing, production, fabrication), that seems to fit nicely. Do you think keeping 製造 as "manufacturing" and making 生産 to "manufacturing, production, providing service" would be a clear and (most importantly) accurate change?
jlptbootcamp 4 weeks ago
Looking at 英辞郎 on the web, 生産 has more of a turnout or output meaning. Note that this also has the feeling of fertility and life. If you add 力 you get 生産力 which is fertility. Anyway, check the 英辞郎 listings you can see a ton of phrases that use this to mean rate of production or turnout or output.
As for being specific about the definitions, I think the more specific the better. This is just the kind of stuff that gets tested over on the JLPT, and I don't think beginners are studying these words :)
Looking at 英辞郎 on the web, 生産 has more of a turnout or output meaning. Note that this also has the feeling of fertility and life. If you add 力 you get 生産力 which is fertility. Anyway, check the 英辞郎 listings you can see a ton of phrases that use this to mean rate of production or turnout or output.
As for being specific about the definitions, I think the more specific the better. This is just the kind of stuff that gets tested over on the JLPT, and I don't think beginners are studying these words :)
TL-ShadowDrgn 3 weeks, 6 days ago
The community edited N2 list contains two separate entries for 頬.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
The first pronunciation, ほお, seems to be more common and includes ほほ as an alternate, whereas the ほほ card has no alternates set. Can someone set ほお as an alternate kana for the second card? I think it should also be removed from the N2 list, but that's no big deal. I don't know if we have a policy on alternate pronunciations requiring separate cards.
The community edited N2 list contains two separate entries for 頬.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
The first pronunciation, ほお, seems to be more common and includes ほほ as an alternate, whereas the ほほ card has no alternates set. Can someone set ほお as an alternate kana for the second card? I think it should also be removed from the N2 list, but that's no big deal. I don't know if we have a policy on alternate pronunciations requiring separate cards.
jlptbootcamp 3 weeks, 6 days ago
When I get home, I'll try to merge these and that should solve it. If we delete it from the deck i think users will lose their progress.
Let me see if I can work some moderator magic.
When I get home, I'll try to merge these and that should solve it. If we delete it from the deck i think users will lose their progress.
Let me see if I can work some moderator magic.
TL-ShadowDrgn 3 weeks, 5 days ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
The first definition in JDIC for 就く is "to ascend (the throne)" but that's an extremely limited use of the word. Example sentences suggest that it's commonly used to mean "to take a job" or "to take a seat." I'd suggest "to take (job, seat, position, etc.)."
http://www.memrise.com/item...
The first definition in JDIC for 就く is "to ascend (the throne)" but that's an extremely limited use of the word. Example sentences suggest that it's commonly used to mean "to take a job" or "to take a seat." I'd suggest "to take (job, seat, position, etc.)."
dready 3 weeks, 5 days ago
jlptbootcamp: On 製造 and 生産, if 生産's emphasis is on the goods, does that imply that 製造's emphasis is on the process?
I added fabrication to 製作's definition so that there is an easily dicernable difference between the English variants of the word so that, when typing in the Japanese when given the English definitions, you know which word memrise is asking for.
Also, I'd do it myself, but I'm not sure how, but http://www.memrise.com/item... should be removed from the deck. I asked three native speakers about it, and they had no idea what it meant. It's probably ok to remove from the deck.
jlptbootcamp: On 製造 and 生産, if 生産's emphasis is on the goods, does that imply that 製造's emphasis is on the process?
I added fabrication to 製作's definition so that there is an easily dicernable difference between the English variants of the word so that, when typing in the Japanese when given the English definitions, you know which word memrise is asking for.
Also, I'd do it myself, but I'm not sure how, but http://www.memrise.com/item... should be removed from the deck. I asked three native speakers about it, and they had no idea what it meant. It's probably ok to remove from the deck.
jlptbootcamp 3 weeks, 4 days ago
@TL-ShadowDrgn - What do you mean? I ascend the throne everyday! :) j/k, yeah, that is *bit* archaic to say the least. I think your suggested defn of to take (job, seat, position, etc..) is awesome. Be sure to cut and paste the 'to ascend' to the alternatives though because it is kind of important, just not ultra important.
@dready - I'm still not able to get a real grasp on what you mean by emphasis on goods for 生産. I have a feeling that this can best be defined as 'production (output)' maybe? If you look at samples from good 'ol Tanaka Corpus it seems like you can swap in output in all the cases without too big of a loss of meaning.
Whereas 製作 seems to be just the generic term for manufacturing, again Tanaka Corpus samples.
And yeah that last word you linked to is just some random non-joyo kanji. That's bit strange, it has been deleted.
Just an FYI for everyone, the community edited set is based on a deck that was uploaded in the early days of memrise. That user is no longer actively using memrise and so we don't really know the origin of the list, but when I did a quick once over of it, it seemed to be a fairly accurate N2 list. I'm sure we will be adding/deleting from it to refine it, so any/all input is appreciated.
@TL-ShadowDrgn - What do you mean? I ascend the throne everyday! :) j/k, yeah, that is *bit* archaic to say the least. I think your suggested defn of to take (job, seat, position, etc..) is awesome. Be sure to cut and paste the 'to ascend' to the alternatives though because it is kind of important, just not ultra important.
@dready - I'm still not able to get a real grasp on what you mean by emphasis on goods for 生産. I have a feeling that this can best be defined as 'production (output)' maybe? If you look at samples from good 'ol Tanaka Corpus it seems like you can swap in output in all the cases without too big of a loss of meaning.
Whereas 製作 seems to be just the generic term for manufacturing, again Tanaka Corpus samples.
And yeah that last word you linked to is just some random non-joyo kanji. That's bit strange, it has been deleted.
Just an FYI for everyone, the community edited set is based on a deck that was uploaded in the early days of memrise. That user is no longer actively using memrise and so we don't really know the origin of the list, but when I did a quick once over of it, it seemed to be a fairly accurate N2 list. I'm sure we will be adding/deleting from it to refine it, so any/all input is appreciated.
TL-ShadowDrgn 3 weeks, 4 days ago
Hey Mac, you're going to have to fix that one for me. I'm not a curator, moderator, or anything. I think Ben hates me for making him fix 100+ of those words that got moved to the wrong topics. :p
Hey Mac, you're going to have to fix that one for me. I'm not a curator, moderator, or anything. I think Ben hates me for making him fix 100+ of those words that got moved to the wrong topics. :p
dready 3 weeks, 4 days ago
http://www.memrise.com/item... also be removed. I'd do it myself, but I unno the way. :(
I added "output" to 生産.
Reiterating, the reason I'm trying to find a meaningful distinction in English between the three words is because when you're presented with "production, manufacture" in English, you'll think, "Well, it's either 生産, 製作, or 製造," but I don't know because they're all distinguished in non-meaningful ways (ie: "production, manufacture" vs. "manufacture, production"). Typing in the Japanese from just the English is ambiguous in these cases, and anything we can do to eliminate ambiguity is Good Thing (TM). Thanks for your input!
http://www.memrise.com/item... also be removed. I'd do it myself, but I unno the way. :(
I added "output" to 生産.
Reiterating, the reason I'm trying to find a meaningful distinction in English between the three words is because when you're presented with "production, manufacture" in English, you'll think, "Well, it's either 生産, 製作, or 製造," but I don't know because they're all distinguished in non-meaningful ways (ie: "production, manufacture" vs. "manufacture, production"). Typing in the Japanese from just the English is ambiguous in these cases, and anything we can do to eliminate ambiguity is Good Thing (TM). Thanks for your input!
jlptbootcamp 3 weeks ago
I think さらさら might need to entries, one for fluently/silky and one for murmuring/rustling. Here are the two entries as they stand:
murmuring
fluently
They seem to be two different senses for this word.
I think さらさら might need to entries, one for fluently/silky and one for murmuring/rustling. Here are the two entries as they stand:
murmuring
fluently
They seem to be two different senses for this word.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 weeks, 5 days ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Super picky here, but that needs to be changed to an intransitive verb. WWWJDIC had it wrong, but I submitted a correction (first time I've ever found something wrong there I think).
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Super picky here, but that needs to be changed to an intransitive verb. WWWJDIC had it wrong, but I submitted a correction (first time I've ever found something wrong there I think).
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 weeks, 4 days ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
For the definition of "prime" 素 should be read そ, not もと.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
For the definition of "prime" 素 should be read そ, not もと.
jlptbootcamp 2 weeks, 2 days ago
To be honest, I'm not sure why 'prime' is even on the list, do you? Seems like an odd one to include. This is for prime numbers. It would make more sense if もと/origin/元 was on the list.
To be honest, I'm not sure why 'prime' is even on the list, do you? Seems like an odd one to include. This is for prime numbers. It would make more sense if もと/origin/元 was on the list.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 weeks, 2 days ago
It's about as useful of a word as 齧る. :p
元 should definitely be part of the N2 list. Qen's N3 list does have it, but it also contains prime.
It's about as useful of a word as 齧る. :p
元 should definitely be part of the N2 list. Qen's N3 list does have it, but it also contains prime.
jlptbootcamp 2 weeks, 2 days ago
Like I said in my comment before, my dentist always says かじって when he wants me to bite down on something. He doesn't say 噛んで :) Granted he's from Kansai. The kanji is completely worthless though.
But I've never, in my 7 years of living in Japan, found myself in a situation where I've wanted to talk about prime numbers. That just isn't usually in my daily conversation. :)
Most likely, 素 should mean ingredient or material if anything. prime as 素 is not included on most lists I've seen. For example, it isn't on Jonathan Waller's:
http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt...
only origin and basis are listed for もと for all the levels of the test. And prime isn't listed at all. I'm not sure how it got on to either list.
Like I said in my comment before, my dentist always says かじって when he wants me to bite down on something. He doesn't say 噛んで :) Granted he's from Kansai. The kanji is completely worthless though.
But I've never, in my 7 years of living in Japan, found myself in a situation where I've wanted to talk about prime numbers. That just isn't usually in my daily conversation. :)
Most likely, 素 should mean ingredient or material if anything. prime as 素 is not included on most lists I've seen. For example, it isn't on Jonathan Waller's:
http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt...
only origin and basis are listed for もと for all the levels of the test. And prime isn't listed at all. I'm not sure how it got on to either list.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 weeks, 2 days ago
Haha, well good to know about かじる. Feel free to expunge "prime" from the JLPT lists or replace the English/kana with a more common use of 素.
Haha, well good to know about かじる. Feel free to expunge "prime" from the JLPT lists or replace the English/kana with a more common use of 素.
Tchael 2 weeks, 1 day ago
I've never seen 可愛い written in kanji form. Ever.
Do we have it there just to have it? Is my experience too limited and it's actually used? Do we have it there merely to have the kanji field used? What's the deal with it. :S
I've never seen 可愛い written in kanji form. Ever.
Do we have it there just to have it? Is my experience too limited and it's actually used? Do we have it there merely to have the kanji field used? What's the deal with it. :S
jlptbootcamp 2 weeks, 1 day ago
I've seen 可愛い in kanji a few times. I think it is mostly used by older people that don't want to sound like teenagers, (or they actually know how to write the complicated kanji). I've asked natives about it and they said it is written in that way sometimes.
I think it is just a word used by younger people a lot that don't necessarily know the kanji, or don't want to use it because it looks stiff and 'uncool'.
I've seen 可愛い in kanji a few times. I think it is mostly used by older people that don't want to sound like teenagers, (or they actually know how to write the complicated kanji). I've asked natives about it and they said it is written in that way sometimes.
I think it is just a word used by younger people a lot that don't necessarily know the kanji, or don't want to use it because it looks stiff and 'uncool'.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 weeks, 1 day ago
I see かわいい written in kanji in video games a lot, probably more often than in kana actually. It's funny how often I see weird-looking kanji in memrise, think "no one uses that" then see it all the time afterwards. 何故、勿論、綺麗...
I see かわいい written in kanji in video games a lot, probably more often than in kana actually. It's funny how often I see weird-looking kanji in memrise, think "no one uses that" then see it all the time afterwards. 何故、勿論、綺麗...
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks, 1 day ago
I also see 可愛い a lot when chatting with natives. IF they write it in Kana, IME missed conversion or they wrote it in Katakana for emphasis.
I also see 可愛い a lot when chatting with natives. IF they write it in Kana, IME missed conversion or they wrote it in Katakana for emphasis.
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks, 1 day ago
もちろん and きれい _are_ written in Hiragana a lot. I've actually been corrected on Lang-8, when I used the Kanji.
"Only old people write it that way"
もちろん and きれい _are_ written in Hiragana a lot. I've actually been corrected on Lang-8, when I used the Kanji.
"Only old people write it that way"
Tchael 2 weeks, 1 day ago
Alright. :P Just wanted to bring it up.
And as for as games go that's the first place I ever saw the kanji and I had to look it up. XD Haven't really seen it other than that.
Alright. :P Just wanted to bring it up.
And as for as games go that's the first place I ever saw the kanji and I had to look it up. XD Haven't really seen it other than that.
Giton 2 weeks ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
comes defined as 'study' whereas 'study room' would be a correct definition to distinguish it from べんきょう and the likes.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
comes defined as 'study' whereas 'study room' would be a correct definition to distinguish it from べんきょう and the likes.
Tchael 2 weeks ago
While "Study" is correct - I do agree that can cause confusion. "Study room", at least to me, seems it may cause confusion of it's own but its less likely to.
A study and a study room (to me) are two different things. For now I've made the change as it was previously more confusing - but I'd like to have someone help brainstorm over a better/more accurate name or possibly use one of the alternatives?
Home Office or even Home Library (as opposed to a Public Library) seems more accurate to myself. Although others may disagree.
While "Study" is correct - I do agree that can cause confusion. "Study room", at least to me, seems it may cause confusion of it's own but its less likely to.
A study and a study room (to me) are two different things. For now I've made the change as it was previously more confusing - but I'd like to have someone help brainstorm over a better/more accurate name or possibly use one of the alternatives?
Home Office or even Home Library (as opposed to a Public Library) seems more accurate to myself. Although others may disagree.
jlptbootcamp 2 weeks ago
I agree Tchael, Study room is something at a school to me. I'm for 'den' or 'home office' as a more modern translation. I don't think most people have a 'study' in their house anymore. :)
The only problem with 'home office' is that it might get confused with 本部 which does mean headquarters, but could sometimes be translated as home office as in the main office of a large company. 'den' could get confused with 巣, an animal's home.
So maybe '(personal) home office'? or 'den (the room)'?
Keep in mind, too, that there are parts of speech that differentiate these two as well.
n;vs; for 勉強 as opposed to just n; for しょさい.
I agree Tchael, Study room is something at a school to me. I'm for 'den' or 'home office' as a more modern translation. I don't think most people have a 'study' in their house anymore. :)
The only problem with 'home office' is that it might get confused with 本部 which does mean headquarters, but could sometimes be translated as home office as in the main office of a large company. 'den' could get confused with 巣, an animal's home.
So maybe '(personal) home office'? or 'den (the room)'?
Keep in mind, too, that there are parts of speech that differentiate these two as well.
n;vs; for 勉強 as opposed to just n; for しょさい.
Tchael 2 weeks ago
I agree with the lack of people having a study in their homes. Although I've grown up with having a study upstairs all of my friends think it's strange. :P
Does it show the part of speech when quizzing on the word? If so I haven't noticed it. I know it shows it when learning the word - but I haven't noticed it while quizzing on the word. If so that's still an issue if "Study" came up.
I agree with the lack of people having a study in their homes. Although I've grown up with having a study upstairs all of my friends think it's strange. :P
Does it show the part of speech when quizzing on the word? If so I haven't noticed it. I know it shows it when learning the word - but I haven't noticed it while quizzing on the word. If so that's still an issue if "Study" came up.
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks ago
One can not assume every user to make sense of the parts of speech, unless there are explanations on this page, clearly visible. I think fixing the definitions first is the most sensible thing to do.
One can not assume every user to make sense of the parts of speech, unless there are explanations on this page, clearly visible. I think fixing the definitions first is the most sensible thing to do.
Tchael 2 weeks ago
So I came across 玄関 today and it's translation is "forey" which,while correct, I've never heard that word in my life and actually had to look it up in a dictionary.
Should one of the more likely to be known words be the main translation (EG: Entranceway; Entrance Hall) and "forey" be an alternative?
(I need to look up what our standards our so I can stop asking everyone and just do work. :P)
So I came across 玄関 today and it's translation is "forey" which,while correct, I've never heard that word in my life and actually had to look it up in a dictionary.
Should one of the more likely to be known words be the main translation (EG: Entranceway; Entrance Hall) and "forey" be an alternative?
(I need to look up what our standards our so I can stop asking everyone and just do work. :P)
jlptbootcamp 2 weeks ago
I think entranceway is good for 玄関. It is kind of like a small area where people put their shoes in Japan. In house, it is usually a step down from the rest of the house and has a different kind of flooring. Shoes are usually put there or there is a shoe cabinet that you put them in. I live in an apartment, so it is essentially just a section of rougher flooring where my door is.
The parts of speech usually pop up for me when I'm quizzing. This is what I use to differentiate between words like ひょっと (on-mim) and おそらく which have similar meanings, I think they are both listed as 'perhaps'.
People will definitely have to start paying attention to the parts of speech at the higher levels for things like transitive vs. intransitive and people taking the JLPT need that info too for usage. I think putting mems at the lower levels that explain the differences could help clear things up.
I think entranceway is good for 玄関. It is kind of like a small area where people put their shoes in Japan. In house, it is usually a step down from the rest of the house and has a different kind of flooring. Shoes are usually put there or there is a shoe cabinet that you put them in. I live in an apartment, so it is essentially just a section of rougher flooring where my door is.
The parts of speech usually pop up for me when I'm quizzing. This is what I use to differentiate between words like ひょっと (on-mim) and おそらく which have similar meanings, I think they are both listed as 'perhaps'.
People will definitely have to start paying attention to the parts of speech at the higher levels for things like transitive vs. intransitive and people taking the JLPT need that info too for usage. I think putting mems at the lower levels that explain the differences could help clear things up.
Tchael 2 weeks ago
My bad. the word was "Foyer" not "Forey". Also if that's what it actually is then Foyer wasn't quite right to begin with as it's more of a lobby or anteroom than an entrance.
Either way - I learned two new words which I'm fine with personally. :P
My bad. the word was "Foyer" not "Forey". Also if that's what it actually is then Foyer wasn't quite right to begin with as it's more of a lobby or anteroom than an entrance.
Either way - I learned two new words which I'm fine with personally. :P
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 weeks ago
玄関 used to be "entranceway" but got changed if you look at the discussion on it. Honestly, I've mixed it up with 入り口 myself when answering so I kind of like the change to "foyer," which is a bit more descriptive and accurate of what 玄関 means.
玄関 used to be "entranceway" but got changed if you look at the discussion on it. Honestly, I've mixed it up with 入り口 myself when answering so I kind of like the change to "foyer," which is a bit more descriptive and accurate of what 玄関 means.
Tchael 2 weeks ago
Just took a look at the discussion. Also relooked up Foyer and read it's entire definition and saw I missed it's use for personal houses. :P I agree that's a lot closer-to-base as a definition.
Just took a look at the discussion. Also relooked up Foyer and read it's entire definition and saw I missed it's use for personal houses. :P I agree that's a lot closer-to-base as a definition.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 weeks ago
On further review, 玄関 seems to be ambiguous. It can refer to both the actual door/entrance itself or to the entry hall. 玄関の広間 is explicitly the entry hall / foyer.
WWWJDIC has an example sentence: だれか玄関にいる。 and translates it to "someone is at the door." That's completely different from "someone is in the foyer." In fact, most of the example sentences have the word referring to the door/doorway and not the little room inside the house. Perhaps "foyer" is an incomplete and misleading definition after all.
On further review, 玄関 seems to be ambiguous. It can refer to both the actual door/entrance itself or to the entry hall. 玄関の広間 is explicitly the entry hall / foyer.
WWWJDIC has an example sentence: だれか玄関にいる。 and translates it to "someone is at the door." That's completely different from "someone is in the foyer." In fact, most of the example sentences have the word referring to the door/doorway and not the little room inside the house. Perhaps "foyer" is an incomplete and misleading definition after all.
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks ago
Actually, jlptbootcamp hit the nail on the head.
On a sidenote, "Foyer" is actually pretty common in Germany :)
In the Japanese->German version, I translated it to "Eingangsbereich".
Actually, jlptbootcamp hit the nail on the head.
On a sidenote, "Foyer" is actually pretty common in Germany :)
In the Japanese->German version, I translated it to "Eingangsbereich".
jlptbootcamp 2 weeks ago
I personally think there is a pretty big difference between entranceway and entrance, but that's just me. Foyer is okay, it just isn't something we use too much. And it is a different kind of room, it's more of a little closet area at the front of a house where you hang jackets, but that is splitting hairs really.
I think kurivuko's mem illustrates it perfectly:
http://www.memrise.com/mem/...
I personally think there is a pretty big difference between entranceway and entrance, but that's just me. Foyer is okay, it just isn't something we use too much. And it is a different kind of room, it's more of a little closet area at the front of a house where you hang jackets, but that is splitting hairs really.
I think kurivuko's mem illustrates it perfectly:
http://www.memrise.com/mem/...
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks ago
賛成です。i wonder though, don't you write nouns in lowercase as well in English? I wondered already when I saw the "Study Room".
賛成です。i wonder though, don't you write nouns in lowercase as well in English? I wondered already when I saw the "Study Room".
Yen 2 weeks ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
the kanji field is set to "外 他". it doesn't actually accept either on their own.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
the kanji field is set to "外 他". it doesn't actually accept either on their own.
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks ago
外 is "outside" and 他 is "other / additional". Two entirely different things.
父は外で働いてる Dad's working outside.
他の質問はない I don't have any additional questions
外 also means "outside", but in another sense. it can mean "outside of the building", it can mean "outside of the group", it can mean "another place" and so on.
他 is more similar to "different"
外 is "outside" and 他 is "other / additional". Two entirely different things.
父は外で働いてる Dad's working outside.
他の質問はない I don't have any additional questions
外 also means "outside", but in another sense. it can mean "outside of the building", it can mean "outside of the group", it can mean "another place" and so on.
他 is more similar to "different"
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks ago
(don't get me wrong, you can read both as "hoka", I'd still split that thing)
(don't get me wrong, you can read both as "hoka", I'd still split that thing)
Giton 2 weeks ago
I see the discussion has quite developed. Thanks for considering to make a change to 書斎. As a remark, I just brought that particular one up because it slipped into the same training session as 勉強 and I ended up giving "wrong" answers most of the time although I memorized both words perfectly. In the end it doesn't matter if it is defined as 'study room' or 'home office'.
Here's another such case struggle with:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
which gets easily confused with 変化 or 変わる but has the narrow meaning of 'change (money)' or 'money exchange' the latter already indexed in the alternatives list.
Just a thought of mine, but ideally there may be two general solutions for such problems
1) to make sure that every word is assigned a unique, fitting English counterpart (a quite formidable task)
2) to allow review of alterantives while testing vocabulary - e.g via a drop down menu as implenented on the flashcards
I see the discussion has quite developed. Thanks for considering to make a change to 書斎. As a remark, I just brought that particular one up because it slipped into the same training session as 勉強 and I ended up giving "wrong" answers most of the time although I memorized both words perfectly. In the end it doesn't matter if it is defined as 'study room' or 'home office'.
Here's another such case struggle with:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
which gets easily confused with 変化 or 変わる but has the narrow meaning of 'change (money)' or 'money exchange' the latter already indexed in the alternatives list.
Just a thought of mine, but ideally there may be two general solutions for such problems
1) to make sure that every word is assigned a unique, fitting English counterpart (a quite formidable task)
2) to allow review of alterantives while testing vocabulary - e.g via a drop down menu as implenented on the flashcards
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 weeks ago
両替 bothers me too. After thinking about it, I prefer "exchange (money)" as the definition. That preserves its meaning as a noun, but hints that it's mostly used as a verb and only in situations involving money. "Change (money)" could get confused with おつり or 細かいお金, and "money exchange" doesn't sound like it's used as a verb.
The general solution to these problems is parenthetical disambiguation (eat that, non-native English speakers), which is working well so far in my opinion. Listing multiple options to clarify ambiguous words can work too, but seems to be frowned on by Memrise staff. Assigning a unique English word to each Japanese word just isn't feasible or even desirable.
両替 bothers me too. After thinking about it, I prefer "exchange (money)" as the definition. That preserves its meaning as a noun, but hints that it's mostly used as a verb and only in situations involving money. "Change (money)" could get confused with おつり or 細かいお金, and "money exchange" doesn't sound like it's used as a verb.
The general solution to these problems is parenthetical disambiguation (eat that, non-native English speakers), which is working well so far in my opinion. Listing multiple options to clarify ambiguous words can work too, but seems to be frowned on by Memrise staff. Assigning a unique English word to each Japanese word just isn't feasible or even desirable.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 weeks ago
Regarding ほか, JDIC surprisingly lists 外 as the preferred kanji, despite not a single one of their 448 example sentences using it. My electronic dictionary has a ton of example sentences using 外 for ほか though, but I learned 他 in school and can't recall ever seeing 外 used for it. Kanji field: 他 alternate kanji: 外 sounds fine to me.
Regarding ほか, JDIC surprisingly lists 外 as the preferred kanji, despite not a single one of their 448 example sentences using it. My electronic dictionary has a ton of example sentences using 外 for ほか though, but I learned 他 in school and can't recall ever seeing 外 used for it. Kanji field: 他 alternate kanji: 外 sounds fine to me.
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 6 days ago
I think exchange (money) would work for 両替. I also agree with the kanji for ほか just wanted to check in with everyone before I made a mistake. I saw the JDIC listing, but it isn't the most reliable. I went ahead and changed it.
I know I'm totally swimming upstream with this issue, but I agree with the memrise staff of having one English word to one Japanese word. Mostly because it is a lot easier to memorize and to build and reinforce that link in my head. After all, the English is really only a 'hint', it doesn't have the same meaning unless it is a concrete noun.
The English is simply a crutch that will eventually disappear. And hopefully with mems (like samples, expressions, mnemonics) you can start to form the sense of the word and not just the English translation. Anyway, sorry to get off topic.
And yes I know @ikenaiAndi and @TL-ShadowDrgn, you disagree with me :) sorry, just my two cents.
I think exchange (money) would work for 両替. I also agree with the kanji for ほか just wanted to check in with everyone before I made a mistake. I saw the JDIC listing, but it isn't the most reliable. I went ahead and changed it.
I know I'm totally swimming upstream with this issue, but I agree with the memrise staff of having one English word to one Japanese word. Mostly because it is a lot easier to memorize and to build and reinforce that link in my head. After all, the English is really only a 'hint', it doesn't have the same meaning unless it is a concrete noun.
The English is simply a crutch that will eventually disappear. And hopefully with mems (like samples, expressions, mnemonics) you can start to form the sense of the word and not just the English translation. Anyway, sorry to get off topic.
And yes I know @ikenaiAndi and @TL-ShadowDrgn, you disagree with me :) sorry, just my two cents.
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 6 days ago
There are sooo many ways to indicate "change" in Japanese, you have to clarify what you expect to see.
For 両替 I put "money exchange" in the "Japanisch" topic (ofc the German counterpart).
People learning Japanese have to get used to the idea that words and translations are not necessarily always the same.
Most textbooks and courses introduce 好き pretty early on, which would be (adj-na; n) in Japanese, but a verb (to like) in English anyways.
Some try to make the learner learn it as "is likeable" - but that always sounds retarded.
母が大好きだ！Mother is "very likeable"! LOL
Sure, having one definition is pretty cool if you can make sure the user is not confused as to what they have to enter. Maybe the example sentence project is gonna help with that... but I somehow have my doubts that even that is enough. You can use so many different words for all the ways to express the same idea in Japanese... that's one of the reasons you have to know like 10k words to be proficient like an English speaker at 6k.. :)
There are sooo many ways to indicate "change" in Japanese, you have to clarify what you expect to see.
For 両替 I put "money exchange" in the "Japanisch" topic (ofc the German counterpart).
People learning Japanese have to get used to the idea that words and translations are not necessarily always the same.
Most textbooks and courses introduce 好き pretty early on, which would be (adj-na; n) in Japanese, but a verb (to like) in English anyways.
Some try to make the learner learn it as "is likeable" - but that always sounds retarded.
母が大好きだ！Mother is "very likeable"! LOL
Sure, having one definition is pretty cool if you can make sure the user is not confused as to what they have to enter. Maybe the example sentence project is gonna help with that... but I somehow have my doubts that even that is enough. You can use so many different words for all the ways to express the same idea in Japanese... that's one of the reasons you have to know like 10k words to be proficient like an English speaker at 6k.. :)
Giton 1 week, 6 days ago
I totally agree with you. It is probably a feature of every language that most words that do not have a one-on-one counterpart in another language. So there is no way to convey the subtile nuances implicated in such words except for providing additional vocabulary or nuances.
This is especially true for Japanese where you have different vocabulary for regular speech, Keigo and newspaper\books which blows up the amount of words you want to memorize to really cover everything. I'd, however, that even most Japanese only have a passive knowledge of most 'newspaper' words, so the active vocabulary is probaly closer to English as it seems.
Well back on topic: Fixing the problematic definitions.
Since I'm quite new to memrise I didn't think of the parentheses in the first place. So all content in parentheses will be omitted when reviewing the vocabulary? I'd guess the vocab with missing disambiguation is about 5-10% in the N3 course which I am taking right now. While this will certainly create no problem to correctly use the word in the end, it hampers one's way to get there and makes learning with memrise a (occasionally) frustrating experience. If vocabulary could be better discriminated and described by extra infomation in parentheses, I'd be all for it!
Part of my problems may also stem from my personal background as I already speak a decent deal of Japanese and am now trying to polish it up all the way to level N2\N1. So a couple of words I come across I know already from everyday use and would intuitively attach different translations as given in memrise.
I totally agree with you. It is probably a feature of every language that most words that do not have a one-on-one counterpart in another language. So there is no way to convey the subtile nuances implicated in such words except for providing additional vocabulary or nuances.
This is especially true for Japanese where you have different vocabulary for regular speech, Keigo and newspaper\books which blows up the amount of words you want to memorize to really cover everything. I'd, however, that even most Japanese only have a passive knowledge of most 'newspaper' words, so the active vocabulary is probaly closer to English as it seems.
Well back on topic: Fixing the problematic definitions.
Since I'm quite new to memrise I didn't think of the parentheses in the first place. So all content in parentheses will be omitted when reviewing the vocabulary? I'd guess the vocab with missing disambiguation is about 5-10% in the N3 course which I am taking right now. While this will certainly create no problem to correctly use the word in the end, it hampers one's way to get there and makes learning with memrise a (occasionally) frustrating experience. If vocabulary could be better discriminated and described by extra infomation in parentheses, I'd be all for it!
Part of my problems may also stem from my personal background as I already speak a decent deal of Japanese and am now trying to polish it up all the way to level N2\N1. So a couple of words I come across I know already from everyday use and would intuitively attach different translations as given in memrise.
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 6 days ago
I totally feel you. Now add to that the fact I learned Japanese (L3) through English (L2), while my mother tongue is German. I'd have created my own associations on what a word would mean. Add to that a ton of exposure to the language, countless hours of chatting and Skype, dorama, anime, eiga, kyoku, and the language somehow slowly formed itself into an amalgamate of information fragments, conveyed by Japanese methods .
I can say what I want to say in Japanese, but translating German into Japanese or Japanese into German requires me to think hard how to formulate it.
I totally feel you. Now add to that the fact I learned Japanese (L3) through English (L2), while my mother tongue is German. I'd have created my own associations on what a word would mean. Add to that a ton of exposure to the language, countless hours of chatting and Skype, dorama, anime, eiga, kyoku, and the language somehow slowly formed itself into an amalgamate of information fragments, conveyed by Japanese methods .
I can say what I want to say in Japanese, but translating German into Japanese or Japanese into German requires me to think hard how to formulate it.
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 week, 6 days ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
I'd rather see 優秀 as "excellence" since that's its main use.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
優勢 is a better word for "superiority" and it's already in the dictionary.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
I'd rather see 優秀 as "excellence" since that's its main use.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
優勢 is a better word for "superiority" and it's already in the dictionary.
Giton 1 week, 6 days ago
＠Andi
Same situation here, native German speaker.
Back to entries I have problems with:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Mostly used in the sense of 'clear (to clarify)' 明確にする but only rearly corresponds to 'definite' e.g. 明確な答え which may even be translated as 'clear answer'. Especially 'clarify' nicely corresponds to the Kanji meaning.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
This word is used in two fashions with totally different implications. もっとも by itself means 'though' but もっともな means 'reasonable'. Although the last is not really in line with the conventions (な), two separate entries are desireable.
＠Andi
Same situation here, native German speaker.
Back to entries I have problems with:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Mostly used in the sense of 'clear (to clarify)' 明確にする but only rearly corresponds to 'definite' e.g. 明確な答え which may even be translated as 'clear answer'. Especially 'clarify' nicely corresponds to the Kanji meaning.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
This word is used in two fashions with totally different implications. もっとも by itself means 'though' but もっともな means 'reasonable'. Although the last is not really in line with the conventions (な), two separate entries are desireable.
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 5 days ago
Apparently, the N3 list has two めいかくs:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
This one has the definition as 'clear'. That's a bit strange. I agree with Giton's clear (to clarify) definition. If you look at the 国語 definition it's:
はっきりしていてまちがいのないこと。また、そのさま。
At least according to Goo:
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp...
The Japanese definition seems to suggest something more like the sense of 'clear' or possibly 'precise', which I've seen this translated as in other places.
Yeah, it looks like もっとも needs to be separated into もっとも adj-na - quite right, and もっとも conj - but then
I disagree with IllarionMakarikhin though, I think this is more often used as a adj-na. Or at least that's where I've seen it the most. Thoughts anyone?
Apparently, the N3 list has two めいかくs:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
This one has the definition as 'clear'. That's a bit strange. I agree with Giton's clear (to clarify) definition. If you look at the 国語 definition it's:
はっきりしていてまちがいのないこと。また、そのさま。
At least according to Goo:
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp...
The Japanese definition seems to suggest something more like the sense of 'clear' or possibly 'precise', which I've seen this translated as in other places.
Yeah, it looks like もっとも needs to be separated into もっとも adj-na - quite right, and もっとも conj - but then
I disagree with IllarionMakarikhin though, I think this is more often used as a adj-na. Or at least that's where I've seen it the most. Thoughts anyone?
Giton 1 week, 5 days ago
Oops, only now I realized the word class definitions also pop up in the test section. So no necessity to add the な - I'll just keep an eye out for the extra information from now on.
Other buggers:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
I see it has the suffix tag but maybe "rank" may be a more suitable definition to discriminate it from 授業 and the likes.
Oops, only now I realized the word class definitions also pop up in the test section. So no necessity to add the な - I'll just keep an eye out for the extra information from now on.
Other buggers:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
I see it has the suffix tag but maybe "rank" may be a more suitable definition to discriminate it from 授業 and the likes.
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 week, 5 days ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
The main definition of 訴える should be "to sue." It's also used as "to appeal to" or "to accuse," but "to raise" is misleading.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
The main definition of 訴える should be "to sue." It's also used as "to appeal to" or "to accuse," but "to raise" is misleading.
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 5 days ago
I agree with your disambiguation of 優秀 and 優勢 ShadowDrgn. Those seem like good definitions.
Hey everybody, since this thread has gotten really active with a lot of different corrections, how about we split future corrections out as separate threads in the forum? That way we can better track what we are talking about. I think some things are going to start to get lost if we keep posting here.
Not to mention that it is simply just taking too long to scroll to the bottom of this thread :) Maybe post it as a new topic in the forum with the preface DENC or DICT (for Dictionary Entries Needing Change?)
And, if a curator does make a change to an entry, could we decide on some way of confirming that? Like, say, posting [Resolved] - changed to XXXX, so that we know the change has been made?
I like to see all the corrections, let's keep this up, I'd really like clean words to practice with.
I agree with your disambiguation of 優秀 and 優勢 ShadowDrgn. Those seem like good definitions.
Hey everybody, since this thread has gotten really active with a lot of different corrections, how about we split future corrections out as separate threads in the forum? That way we can better track what we are talking about. I think some things are going to start to get lost if we keep posting here.
Not to mention that it is simply just taking too long to scroll to the bottom of this thread :) Maybe post it as a new topic in the forum with the preface DENC or DICT (for Dictionary Entries Needing Change?)
And, if a curator does make a change to an entry, could we decide on some way of confirming that? Like, say, posting [Resolved] - changed to XXXX, so that we know the change has been made?
I like to see all the corrections, let's keep this up, I'd really like clean words to practice with.
Tchael 1 week, 5 days ago
Until we have a means of editing posts to maintain a list of corrections on a thread - I think it's far too much work. Many of us are active on this thread and keep up with the needed updates or ask others their opinions on a change. So for now it's working - and I'm a fan of not fixing what isn't broken.
Until we have a means of editing posts to maintain a list of corrections on a thread - I think it's far too much work. Many of us are active on this thread and keep up with the needed updates or ask others their opinions on a change. So for now it's working - and I'm a fan of not fixing what isn't broken.
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 5 days ago
Took me about .5 sec to scroll down. I agree with Tchael, don't fix what ain't broken :)
Took me about .5 sec to scroll down. I agree with Tchael, don't fix what ain't broken :)
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 week, 5 days ago
As much as I disliked the old Disqus message board, the threaded style did make discussions like this a lot easier. Ideally we'd discuss each word on its own page, but since Ben is the only one that gets updates/emails about those comments, it isn't feasible for the rest of us.
This big thread hasn't been working out too well though. すごい is still "terrible"; もと is still "prime"; etc.
As much as I disliked the old Disqus message board, the threaded style did make discussions like this a lot easier. Ideally we'd discuss each word on its own page, but since Ben is the only one that gets updates/emails about those comments, it isn't feasible for the rest of us.
This big thread hasn't been working out too well though. すごい is still "terrible"; もと is still "prime"; etc.
Tchael 1 week, 4 days ago
So you take two that haven't been fixed to the tens that have? Hardly a fair way to say it hasn't been working out too well. :P
I think with the relatively limited moderation tools (As far as I know Curators can only edit the dictionaries) and no way for us to communicate outside of the forums other than on eachothers' walls. There's no special curators' forums or anything. I think it's working out better than I originally expected thanks to the curators who check the forums regularly - as well as those who read this thread (even if they don't actively post here)
So you take two that haven't been fixed to the tens that have? Hardly a fair way to say it hasn't been working out too well. :P
I think with the relatively limited moderation tools (As far as I know Curators can only edit the dictionaries) and no way for us to communicate outside of the forums other than on eachothers' walls. There's no special curators' forums or anything. I think it's working out better than I originally expected thanks to the curators who check the forums regularly - as well as those who read this thread (even if they don't actively post here)
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 4 days ago
Yeah, it is not a real elegant solution on any front.
Another reason why I think it would be useful is because I'm doing a lot of moderating/merging (sometimes 100 or so words a day) and some of these words have been changed out for better definitions than the 'master' dictionary which is a scrape of WWWJDIC. So, I'm afraid of running into a conflict and not being able to find what we decided on in this mess of a thread. Or I might just merge one of these definitions with the main one and erase it altogether. Also, if we had some kind of standard way of saying that an issue is resolved curators wouldn't be wasting there time trying to edit the word in the dictionary.
I guess my biggest worry is that we have all this discussion and then a month, 6 months, 2 years down the line, somebody wants to change something and the discussion starts back up again, when we've already done all the research and commented on it before. That just wastes all our time (or whoever brings it up again) when if we had some clean record they could just see the reasoning themselves.
An ideal solution would be to have some way to listen in on each individual word's discussion like what @TL-ShadowDrgn suggested. Then we could just comment on each word and the record would be there instead of this every expanding thread. I mean it is only 3 weeks old and it already has 82 comments. In another month, it might be around 200 comments or more. Anyway, I put in a request on the main forum for this feature, since it is a system-wide thing and obviously not meant for this thread. If you have any thoughts on the matter, could you comment on it in the main forums?:
http://www.memrise.com/foru...
This would make my life as a moderator a lot easier and it would preserve everyone's changes.
Yeah, it is not a real elegant solution on any front.
Another reason why I think it would be useful is because I'm doing a lot of moderating/merging (sometimes 100 or so words a day) and some of these words have been changed out for better definitions than the 'master' dictionary which is a scrape of WWWJDIC. So, I'm afraid of running into a conflict and not being able to find what we decided on in this mess of a thread. Or I might just merge one of these definitions with the main one and erase it altogether. Also, if we had some kind of standard way of saying that an issue is resolved curators wouldn't be wasting there time trying to edit the word in the dictionary.
I guess my biggest worry is that we have all this discussion and then a month, 6 months, 2 years down the line, somebody wants to change something and the discussion starts back up again, when we've already done all the research and commented on it before. That just wastes all our time (or whoever brings it up again) when if we had some clean record they could just see the reasoning themselves.
An ideal solution would be to have some way to listen in on each individual word's discussion like what @TL-ShadowDrgn suggested. Then we could just comment on each word and the record would be there instead of this every expanding thread. I mean it is only 3 weeks old and it already has 82 comments. In another month, it might be around 200 comments or more. Anyway, I put in a request on the main forum for this feature, since it is a system-wide thing and obviously not meant for this thread. If you have any thoughts on the matter, could you comment on it in the main forums?:
http://www.memrise.com/foru...
This would make my life as a moderator a lot easier and it would preserve everyone's changes.
Giton 1 week, 4 days ago
I absolutely second this idea. The whole reason I stumbled upon this thread to ask for changes was because I left comments in the word discussion and obviously nobody cared about them.
Now I see the reason why.
I absolutely second this idea. The whole reason I stumbled upon this thread to ask for changes was because I left comments in the word discussion and obviously nobody cared about them.
Now I see the reason why.
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 3 days ago
It's not that we wouldn't care, we just don't get informed.
The fact that stuff named and pointed at here doesn't get fixed is probably because everyone thinks that someone else will do it ;)
A nicely organized system for curators would be nice. Supposed to come with the long-awaited Wiki tool.
It's not that we wouldn't care, we just don't get informed.
The fact that stuff named and pointed at here doesn't get fixed is probably because everyone thinks that someone else will do it ;)
A nicely organized system for curators would be nice. Supposed to come with the long-awaited Wiki tool.
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 week, 3 days ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
食品 should probably be "foodstuff" instead of "commodity" to distinguish it from 商品.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
食品 should probably be "foodstuff" instead of "commodity" to distinguish it from 商品.
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 3 days ago
@TL-ShadowDrgn - I agree. Changed it.
@IkenaiAndi - Ben commented about that actually in the main forum that I linked to. It looks like we are going to get another update in the next few days that might change our work flow a bit stay tuned.
@TL-ShadowDrgn - I agree. Changed it.
@IkenaiAndi - Ben commented about that actually in the main forum that I linked to. It looks like we are going to get another update in the next few days that might change our work flow a bit stay tuned.
benwhately 1 week, 3 days ago
@Giton, I am very sorry that you queries weren't noticed - I do try to forward any comments on specific items to the curators, or to make the edit myself if it is clear-cut. I am not sure how I have missed your comments. I will check again. The system is far from ideal at the moment, but things will improve greatly very soon!
@ikenaiAndi and jlptbootcamp, yes, the new wiki features version 1 is coming very soon! it should improve things in a variety of ways. Thanks for your patience as we have been finishing this off!
Best wishes
Ben
@Giton, I am very sorry that you queries weren't noticed - I do try to forward any comments on specific items to the curators, or to make the edit myself if it is clear-cut. I am not sure how I have missed your comments. I will check again. The system is far from ideal at the moment, but things will improve greatly very soon!
@ikenaiAndi and jlptbootcamp, yes, the new wiki features version 1 is coming very soon! it should improve things in a variety of ways. Thanks for your patience as we have been finishing this off!
Best wishes
Ben
Giton 1 week, 2 days ago
Hi ben, don't worry there only few and I immediately hit on the forum and reposted everything here. So it's probably done by now.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
could that be changed to 'timetable' or 'schedule'?
Hi ben, don't worry there only few and I immediately hit on the forum and reposted everything here. So it's probably done by now.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
could that be changed to 'timetable' or 'schedule'?
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 2 days ago
Can actually be both, but for schedule, I'd prefer 予定.
A 時刻表 is not a schedule per se, but a list of scheduled things like a flight plan, or a course book.
Can actually be both, but for schedule, I'd prefer 予定.
A 時刻表 is not a schedule per se, but a list of scheduled things like a flight plan, or a course book.
Tchael 1 week, 2 days ago
Fight Schedule
Course Schedule
I can see it being both honestly. I just agree more with timetable.
Fight Schedule
Course Schedule
I can see it being both honestly. I just agree more with timetable.
Yen 1 week, 2 days ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
背/せ is listed as "back (of the body)", but ikenaiAndi has a comment on there that it actually should be "stature". Was this from before you were a moderator?
http://www.memrise.com/item...
背/せ is listed as "back (of the body)", but ikenaiAndi has a comment on there that it actually should be "stature". Was this from before you were a moderator?
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 2 days ago
Yep
Back of the body (as in the thing that can hurt^^) is 背中, however the back side of your body can be 背
背 is used as "stature" though (せい), so the definition was kinda irritating. I don't know until today what the hell せ does in there, outside of a compound. I didn't touch it as a curator though.
Yep
Back of the body (as in the thing that can hurt^^) is 背中, however the back side of your body can be 背
背 is used as "stature" though (せい), so the definition was kinda irritating. I don't know until today what the hell せ does in there, outside of a compound. I didn't touch it as a curator though.
Giton 1 week, 2 days ago
This is from the Kanji entries
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Could 'daring' be added to the alternatives?
This is from the Kanji entries
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Could 'daring' be added to the alternatives?
Tchael 1 week, 2 days ago
'Daring' makes me think of 不適 or maybe 大胆
It takes a great amount of courage to be daring.
I'll let a different curator decide on whether to add it or not.
'Daring' makes me think of 不適 or maybe 大胆
It takes a great amount of courage to be daring.
I'll let a different curator decide on whether to add it or not.
Tchael 1 week, 1 day ago
For 不自由 almost all of the sentences I see almost all have to do with disabilities or inconvenience more-so than discomfort. Thoughts on switching this from those with a bit more Japanese experience?
http://www.memrise.com/item...
For 不自由 almost all of the sentences I see almost all have to do with disabilities or inconvenience more-so than discomfort. Thoughts on switching this from those with a bit more Japanese experience?
http://www.memrise.com/item...
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 1 day ago
@Giton for この間 (konoaida), I've always seen it as 'the other day' or something similar:
http://eow.alc.co.jp/search...
If you pronounce it このかん, then it means 'meanwhile', but I don't think that sense is as common as このあいだ.
@Giton for この間 (konoaida), I've always seen it as 'the other day' or something similar:
http://eow.alc.co.jp/search...
If you pronounce it このかん, then it means 'meanwhile', but I don't think that sense is as common as このあいだ.
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 1 day ago
I agree, nobody says spectacles, I think that was a moderating error because the first entry in WWWJDIC has that. I changed it to 'glasses'.
I agree, nobody says spectacles, I think that was a moderating error because the first entry in WWWJDIC has that. I changed it to 'glasses'.
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 1 day ago
This word has the definition of weather:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Which is technically correct, but it is more like the general overall weather of a place more than the weather today. For example, we wouldn't ask -
今日の天候はどう？ get the weather forecast for the day.
It's more like this example sentence:
ロンドンでの天候は晴れです.
The weather is fine in London.
This concept is a bit hard to articulate in English.
Or at least I that is my understanding of the word, does anyone have any ideas on how to best define this?
This word has the definition of weather:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Which is technically correct, but it is more like the general overall weather of a place more than the weather today. For example, we wouldn't ask -
今日の天候はどう？ get the weather forecast for the day.
It's more like this example sentence:
ロンドンでの天候は晴れです.
The weather is fine in London.
This concept is a bit hard to articulate in English.
Or at least I that is my understanding of the word, does anyone have any ideas on how to best define this?
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 1 day ago
I don't see anything wrong with having tenkou and tenki defined as "weather" and set as alternatives.
I don't see anything wrong with having tenkou and tenki defined as "weather" and set as alternatives.
Tchael 1 week, 1 day ago
I don't think there is a proper way to define that via definitions. As it's honestly the same meaning just... well used differently.
I'd very much support your two examples being added as "extra info" to show the difference between the two. I feel that's likely the best way to show the difference.
I don't think there is a proper way to define that via definitions. As it's honestly the same meaning just... well used differently.
I'd very much support your two examples being added as "extra info" to show the difference between the two. I feel that's likely the best way to show the difference.
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
olden days is a pretty good translation actually. it sure means "in the past" or "(back) then" as well, but there's nothing wrong with it like this.
as for tenki vs tenkou: nah, they're not used differently. they're picked by level of formality, but that's not something you can teach by means of flashcards, you have to be exposed to the language.
olden days is a pretty good translation actually. it sure means "in the past" or "(back) then" as well, but there's nothing wrong with it like this.
as for tenki vs tenkou: nah, they're not used differently. they're picked by level of formality, but that's not something you can teach by means of flashcards, you have to be exposed to the language.
Giton 1 week ago
Yeah, in principle it's fitting, but uncommon in everyday use. I'd expect to find 'olden days' in some novel perhaps. Regarding your example for the German translation, I think the most fitting English counterpart 'back then' may correspond best to 'mukashi'.
Yeah, in principle it's fitting, but uncommon in everyday use. I'd expect to find 'olden days' in some novel perhaps. Regarding your example for the German translation, I think the most fitting English counterpart 'back then' may correspond best to 'mukashi'.
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
The problem with the most commonly used wordings as definitions is, you'll run into problems with a lot of similar or even identical defs. 昔、その時 and so on can all be "(back) then" (yeah, they can also refer to something else, Japanese is flexible).
I think as long as the definitions are clearly understandable, it's all right.
I also had no problem with "spectacles" as opposed to "glasses" really. I had, however, problems figuring out which one memrise wanted me to enter. この、これ、こっち、こちら? Those have been fixed a while ago.
Rather than fixing olden days to back then, or spectacles to glasses, real wrong definitions should be fixed and unclear definitions cleared up.
Of course, this is just my take on this. The nuance also has to fit. I would not translate 朝飯 and 朝ごはん and 朝食 into "Frühstück". The latter one would probably end up as "Morgenmahlzeit".
That's also one of the reasons why I find 1-word-definitions problematic in many cases.. but I argues this point to a point where my face turned blue, so ... not again :p
Please bear in mind I'm speaking as a learner here, not as a curator of Japanese and Japanisch. For Japanese, I'll leave it to jlptbootcamp, who has done a great job as a kind of team leader up to this point.
The problem with the most commonly used wordings as definitions is, you'll run into problems with a lot of similar or even identical defs. 昔、その時 and so on can all be "(back) then" (yeah, they can also refer to something else, Japanese is flexible).
I think as long as the definitions are clearly understandable, it's all right.
I also had no problem with "spectacles" as opposed to "glasses" really. I had, however, problems figuring out which one memrise wanted me to enter. この、これ、こっち、こちら? Those have been fixed a while ago.
Rather than fixing olden days to back then, or spectacles to glasses, real wrong definitions should be fixed and unclear definitions cleared up.
Of course, this is just my take on this. The nuance also has to fit. I would not translate 朝飯 and 朝ごはん and 朝食 into "Frühstück". The latter one would probably end up as "Morgenmahlzeit".
That's also one of the reasons why I find 1-word-definitions problematic in many cases.. but I argues this point to a point where my face turned blue, so ... not again :p
Please bear in mind I'm speaking as a learner here, not as a curator of Japanese and Japanisch. For Japanese, I'll leave it to jlptbootcamp, who has done a great job as a kind of team leader up to this point.
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 week ago
Hit a bunch of seemingly uncommon main definitions or confusing ones today.
運転 "operation" seems only to be used as "driving." "Operation" is too generic, isn't it?
偶々 "casually" seems to always mean something more like "coincidentally." Almost all of the JDIC example sentences translate it to "happen to."
設計 "plan" is for architectural plans and should probably be "layout" so it isn't confused with 計画. "Design" would work better than "plan" but would conflict with 意匠.
劣る "to fall behind" seems to always be more like the second listed definition: "to be inferior to."
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Hit a bunch of seemingly uncommon main definitions or confusing ones today.
運転 "operation" seems only to be used as "driving." "Operation" is too generic, isn't it?
偶々 "casually" seems to always mean something more like "coincidentally." Almost all of the JDIC example sentences translate it to "happen to."
設計 "plan" is for architectural plans and should probably be "layout" so it isn't confused with 計画. "Design" would work better than "plan" but would conflict with 意匠.
劣る "to fall behind" seems to always be more like the second listed definition: "to be inferior to."
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
operation in a surgical sense would be 手術, and operation of a machine is 利用 - you can also "operate" a machine with 動かす (which originally means "to move (smt, smb)" ... set it as "driving"
偶々 means "by chance", something happening "once in a blue moon".
設計 = layout would be perfect
劣る is used for both, being inferior and fall behind - tough call
operation in a surgical sense would be 手術, and operation of a machine is 利用 - you can also "operate" a machine with 動かす (which originally means "to move (smt, smb)" ... set it as "driving"
偶々 means "by chance", something happening "once in a blue moon".
設計 = layout would be perfect
劣る is used for both, being inferior and fall behind - tough call
Giton 6 days, 16 hours ago
Yep, similars are a problem. Haven't checked if there's another 'back then' already in the library that may cause confusion.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
This entry seems to need a little fix as it displays Kanji instead of Kana by default.
Yep, similars are a problem. Haven't checked if there's another 'back then' already in the library that may cause confusion.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
This entry seems to need a little fix as it displays Kanji instead of Kana by default.
TL-ShadowDrgn 6 days, 14 hours ago
That one was created for the Japanese topic, got moved to the Japanese Kanji topic by mistake, then had its fields "fixed." It needs to be moved back and un-fixed.
That one was created for the Japanese topic, got moved to the Japanese Kanji topic by mistake, then had its fields "fixed." It needs to be moved back and un-fixed.
Giton 6 days, 13 hours ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
'(crude) oil' may make for a unique translation to distinguish from 油
http://www.memrise.com/item...
'(crude) oil' may make for a unique translation to distinguish from 油
Giton 6 days, 13 hours ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
friend or partner
how about 'mate' as already indexed? company reminds me more of 'kaisha'
http://www.memrise.com/item...
friend or partner
how about 'mate' as already indexed? company reminds me more of 'kaisha'
Giton 6 days, 13 hours ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
This is also misleading. Should be a 'circular (bulletin)' but not circulation.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
This is also misleading. Should be a 'circular (bulletin)' but not circulation.
jlptbootcamp 5 days, 19 hours ago
Do you think 家内 should still be included on the N2 list? It is a bit outdated. I don't think I have seen that word on anything this century:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Do you think 家内 should still be included on the N2 list? It is a bit outdated. I don't think I have seen that word on anything this century:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
ikenaiAndi 5 days, 18 hours ago
people obviously still use it. i know my friend does. how representative that is, i don't know.
people obviously still use it. i know my friend does. how representative that is, i don't know.
Giton 5 days, 15 hours ago
Probably also depends on where you live. People in Kansai tend to refer to their wifes as 嫁 or 女房(elder people) rather than かない. Don't know if Kyoto fits in with the rest of Kansai though - or rather, wants to fit in...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
I'd rather have this tagged as 'education' if that does not interfere with other vocabulary.
Probably also depends on where you live. People in Kansai tend to refer to their wifes as 嫁 or 女房(elder people) rather than かない. Don't know if Kyoto fits in with the rest of Kansai though - or rather, wants to fit in...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
I'd rather have this tagged as 'education' if that does not interfere with other vocabulary.
Giton 5 days, 14 hours ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Why is よろしく defined as 'well'? I have only found the meaning of '(best)regards' in several dictionaries and only ever encountered it within that context.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Why is よろしく defined as 'well'? I have only found the meaning of '(best)regards' in several dictionaries and only ever encountered it within that context.
TL-ShadowDrgn 5 days, 12 hours ago
Most of the words in the dictionary were scraped from JDIC with no human editing. The English definition is simply whatever JDIC listed first, which is appropriate 95% of the time, but if you see a strangely-defined word, it probably isn't because someone here chose that definition.
よろしく as "best regards" sounds good to me.
Most of the words in the dictionary were scraped from JDIC with no human editing. The English definition is simply whatever JDIC listed first, which is appropriate 95% of the time, but if you see a strangely-defined word, it probably isn't because someone here chose that definition.
よろしく as "best regards" sounds good to me.
Tchael 5 days, 11 hours ago
I'll let someone with more experience make that call. It seems fine to me and with a (albeit quick) amount of research it seems suiting.
I only really know よろしく in context of よろしくお願いします - so I won't make the call on this one.
Also, as TL-ShadowDrgn stated, the words are just a JDIC scrape and so still need a lot of fine-tuning.
But after everything is fine-tuned and set in - it's all smooth sailing and additions from there! ;)
I'll let someone with more experience make that call. It seems fine to me and with a (albeit quick) amount of research it seems suiting.
I only really know よろしく in context of よろしくお願いします - so I won't make the call on this one.
Also, as TL-ShadowDrgn stated, the words are just a JDIC scrape and so still need a lot of fine-tuning.
But after everything is fine-tuned and set in - it's all smooth sailing and additions from there! ;)
Tchael 5 days, 9 hours ago
Re: 天候
The word "Climate" instead of "Weather" although there really is nothing wrong with having 'weather' it would be nice to know if you're supposed to be entering 天候 or 天気 as the answer.
This is what my teacher said on Skype:
[6:08:00 PM] Yoko: 天気 weather 天候 climate
今日の天気はどうですか？
[6:08:11 PM] Yoko: 日本の天候は、温暖です。
天候 is more official term than 天気.
[6:10:53 PM] Yoko: In common conversarion we don't say 天候.
[6:11:18 PM] Me: So it would more commonly be seen on the news?
[6:11:31 PM] Yoko: Yes.
[6:11:57 PM] Yoko: In the news, in the reports, we use 天候
Re: 天候
The word "Climate" instead of "Weather" although there really is nothing wrong with having 'weather' it would be nice to know if you're supposed to be entering 天候 or 天気 as the answer.
This is what my teacher said on Skype:
[6:08:00 PM] Yoko: 天気 weather 天候 climate
今日の天気はどうですか？
[6:08:11 PM] Yoko: 日本の天候は、温暖です。
天候 is more official term than 天気.
[6:10:53 PM] Yoko: In common conversarion we don't say 天候.
[6:11:18 PM] Me: So it would more commonly be seen on the news?
[6:11:31 PM] Yoko: Yes.
[6:11:57 PM] Yoko: In the news, in the reports, we use 天候
ikenaiAndi 4 days, 17 hours ago
That's basically what I said above. You don't trust me, my feelings are hurt ;_;
:p
葉子さんによろしく！ :)
That's basically what I said above. You don't trust me, my feelings are hurt ;_;
:p
葉子さんによろしく！ :)
Tchael 4 days, 14 hours ago
I trust you. But I also trust JLPTBootCamp (gah! Not knowing his name ;-;) seeing as you both have more experience than me.
I know you also speak with natives frequently so can have their input. =P But I thought I'd go quote a native for the discussion. lol
I trust you. But I also trust JLPTBootCamp (gah! Not knowing his name ;-;) seeing as you both have more experience than me.
I know you also speak with natives frequently so can have their input. =P But I thought I'd go quote a native for the discussion. lol
Giton 4 days, 14 hours ago
A question to the pros here:
There are three entries for 'respect' here and besides having problems to figure out which is which they seem to have different uses.
敬意 - more used in the sense 'to honor so.'
尊敬 - respect towards people
尊重 - respect towards principles
Thats at least the contexts that I encountered the words in when I look them up. Or am I mistaken here? So far only encountered 尊敬 in everyday speech so I'm at a miss on when to use the other two.
A question to the pros here:
There are three entries for 'respect' here and besides having problems to figure out which is which they seem to have different uses.
敬意 - more used in the sense 'to honor so.'
尊敬 - respect towards people
尊重 - respect towards principles
Thats at least the contexts that I encountered the words in when I look them up. Or am I mistaken here? So far only encountered 尊敬 in everyday speech so I'm at a miss on when to use the other two.
ikenaiAndi 4 days, 12 hours ago
I just asked a native and tried to find out what he was saying, but after a discussion, this was what he said (which boils down to what you already assumed):
1. only 敬意 can't be used with する。 ×敬意する ✓尊敬する ✓尊重する
2.尊敬 is used for a (wise, old, good) person while 尊重 is used for a will, heart, idea, thinking, opinion。 ×先生を尊重する。 ✓先生を尊敬する。 ×妻の意見を尊敬する。 ✓妻の意見を尊重する。
3. 敬意 is usually used with 抱く or 払う。 ✓ 先生に敬意を抱く。 ✓先生に敬意を払う。敬意 is a noun which means a "feeling" of respecting.
I just asked a native and tried to find out what he was saying, but after a discussion, this was what he said (which boils down to what you already assumed):
1. only 敬意 can't be used with する。 ×敬意する ✓尊敬する ✓尊重する
2.尊敬 is used for a (wise, old, good) person while 尊重 is used for a will, heart, idea, thinking, opinion。 ×先生を尊重する。 ✓先生を尊敬する。 ×妻の意見を尊敬する。 ✓妻の意見を尊重する。
3. 敬意 is usually used with 抱く or 払う。 ✓ 先生に敬意を抱く。 ✓先生に敬意を払う。敬意 is a noun which means a "feeling" of respecting.
Giton 3 days, 23 hours ago
ありがとうございます。ちょっと考えて見てから決めます。memriseを使うのが始めたばっかりで、もうちょっと慣れてから出来るかもしれません。
色々なrespectという意味の言葉についての説明もありがとうございます。やっぱり私は思った使い方と近いですよね。nativeの友達にもありがとう。
ありがとうございます。ちょっと考えて見てから決めます。memriseを使うのが始めたばっかりで、もうちょっと慣れてから出来るかもしれません。
色々なrespectという意味の言葉についての説明もありがとうございます。やっぱり私は思った使い方と近いですよね。nativeの友達にもありがとう。
Giton 3 days, 15 hours ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
I'd like to have you opinion on this entry. To my understanding, the correct Kanji should be 送る if the meaning of 'to send' is to be maintained, but there is actually another clean entry for that. The other 贈る (current Kanji) means 'to present sth. to so.' or 'to award'. All of the latter pop up in the alternatives list. My suggestion would be to delete the meaning of 'to send' and choose 'to award' as this should cause the least confusion with other Japanese vocabulary in the dictionary.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
I'd like to have you opinion on this entry. To my understanding, the correct Kanji should be 送る if the meaning of 'to send' is to be maintained, but there is actually another clean entry for that. The other 贈る (current Kanji) means 'to present sth. to so.' or 'to award'. All of the latter pop up in the alternatives list. My suggestion would be to delete the meaning of 'to send' and choose 'to award' as this should cause the least confusion with other Japanese vocabulary in the dictionary.
jlptbootcamp 3 days, 11 hours ago
I'm moderating あげる, 上げる at the moment and this word has several meanings. Some of which I think should be broken out into their own words. I think there should be 3 words - to raise, to give, and to deep fry. Are those the 3 major senses? Am I missing one?
@Giton - I think you got it right illarion got it right in his mem. How about 'to present (a gift)' to differentiate it from 授与 which is used more for general awarding. :)
I'm moderating あげる, 上げる at the moment and this word has several meanings. Some of which I think should be broken out into their own words. I think there should be 3 words - to raise, to give, and to deep fry. Are those the 3 major senses? Am I missing one?
@Giton - I think you got it right illarion got it right in his mem. How about 'to present (a gift)' to differentiate it from 授与 which is used more for general awarding. :)
Giton 3 days, 2 hours ago
Second that!
Deep fry should be 揚げる and thus a completely different entry, no?
Second that!
Deep fry should be 揚げる and thus a completely different entry, no?
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 hours, 9 minutes ago
Two words that list kanji that the Microsoft IME doesn't handle:
稍 やや http://www.memrise.com/item/842153/a-little-27/
お目出度う おめでとう http://www.memrise.com/item/812558/congratulations-10/
I don't see any example sentences with those words used as kanji, and お目出度う is especially silly.
Two words that list kanji that the Microsoft IME doesn't handle:
稍 やや http://www.memrise.com/item/842153/a-little-27/
お目出度う おめでとう http://www.memrise.com/item/812558/congratulations-10/
I don't see any example sentences with those words used as kanji, and お目出度う is especially silly.
I went through and moderated all 208 of the kana for the Kana subsection of Japanese. This way all the audio and mems are merged together and it's better learning for everyone! However because of the simplicity of the section (to learn kana) I figured some base topics would be great for this section.
My thoughts on the ideal courses for this section are the following 9 courses.
======FEATURED======
"Kana Collection" - Contains all 104 Kana from both Hiragana and Katakana.
Hiragana - 104 Hiragana
katakana - 104 Katakana
==============
Basic Hiragana (Lacking dakuten/contractions)
Basic Katakana
Dakuten/Handakuten Hiragana
Dakuten/Handakuten Katakana
Contraction Hiragana (じゃ、みゅ、にゃ)
Contraction Katakana
========================================
With those 9 courses everything is covered and split up for those who want to focus more on certain kana (such as ゛ and ゜or 拗音) in a way that I feel is common and makes sense. Some of these courses already exist! I want to delete redundant topics such as the two Katakana courses where the only discrepancy is that one lacks ン - and now that all the kana are merged and approved that's possible to do. That way this section is as tidy as the words.
I'd appreciate other peoples' input on this and what their thoughts are on me asking Ben to help me clean a few of the topics up as well as those 9 courses being created (if they don't already) as well as the three I mentioned being the featured courses.
Oh - an added tidbit. I'm trying to get Ben to add the Hiragana audio to the Katakana as well. Although he's not sure how difficult it will be to do so, I hope to see it soon! :P
My thoughts on the ideal courses for this section are the following 9 courses.
======FEATURED======
"Kana Collection" - Contains all 104 Kana from both Hiragana and Katakana.
Hiragana - 104 Hiragana
katakana - 104 Katakana
==============
Basic Hiragana (Lacking dakuten/contractions)
Basic Katakana
Dakuten/Handakuten Hiragana
Dakuten/Handakuten Katakana
Contraction Hiragana (じゃ、みゅ、にゃ)
Contraction Katakana
========================================
With those 9 courses everything is covered and split up for those who want to focus more on certain kana (such as ゛ and ゜or 拗音) in a way that I feel is common and makes sense. Some of these courses already exist! I want to delete redundant topics such as the two Katakana courses where the only discrepancy is that one lacks ン - and now that all the kana are merged and approved that's possible to do. That way this section is as tidy as the words.
I'd appreciate other peoples' input on this and what their thoughts are on me asking Ben to help me clean a few of the topics up as well as those 9 courses being created (if they don't already) as well as the three I mentioned being the featured courses.
Oh - an added tidbit. I'm trying to get Ben to add the Hiragana audio to the Katakana as well. Although he's not sure how difficult it will be to do so, I hope to see it soon! :P
4 comments
Latest 12 hours, 51 minutes ago
benwhately 1 day, 6 hours ago
I will set up the featured courses as you suggest - could you send me the links to the courses that you mean though because there are a few with the same names (though now that you have done all the merging I guess that the content should be the same, shouldn't it?).
I will do the audio at the same time that I fix that,
Thanks for all you brilliant work on this!
Best wishes
Ben
I will set up the featured courses as you suggest - could you send me the links to the courses that you mean though because there are a few with the same names (though now that you have done all the merging I guess that the content should be the same, shouldn't it?).
I will do the audio at the same time that I fix that,
Thanks for all you brilliant work on this!
Best wishes
Ben
cacoethes 13 hours, 14 minutes ago
THANK YOU! =) This needed to be done very badly. You are awesome. ^.^
THANK YOU! =) This needed to be done very badly. You are awesome. ^.^
Tchael 12 hours, 51 minutes ago
I also sent this to you on Skype but in case you see it here first Ben:
"Kana Collection": http://www.memrise.com/set/...
Replace the current Hiragana course with: http://www.memrise.com/set/...
Also rename the current featured hiragana course as "Basic Hiragana"
Katakana:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
Rename this course as "Basic Katakana":
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
Delete these courses for being redundant:
http://www.memrise.com/set/... (same as current featured Hiragana course)
http://www.memrise.com/set/... (Same as Katakana-6)
I also sent this to you on Skype but in case you see it here first Ben:
"Kana Collection": http://www.memrise.com/set/...
Replace the current Hiragana course with: http://www.memrise.com/set/...
Also rename the current featured hiragana course as "Basic Hiragana"
Katakana:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
Rename this course as "Basic Katakana":
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
Delete these courses for being redundant:
http://www.memrise.com/set/... (same as current featured Hiragana course)
http://www.memrise.com/set/... (Same as Katakana-6)
Tchael 12 hours, 51 minutes ago
Thanks for all your help Ben! Pleasure helping Memrise out as always. :)
Thanks for all your help Ben! Pleasure helping Memrise out as always. :)
I want to create a list for myself and share it only after comprehensive evaluation. Can lists be made private?
4 comments
Latest 1 day ago
jlptbootcamp 1 day, 9 hours ago
You think you can create a list with an underline in front of it like _mylist and it won't show in the general listing. Then, later, you can change the name and it will appear in the general listing. It will still be accessible by anyway that has a link to it, and moderators will still see it, so we can merge words from it. It is also accessible through some other back channels but it is mostly private.
You think you can create a list with an underline in front of it like _mylist and it won't show in the general listing. Then, later, you can change the name and it will appear in the general listing. It will still be accessible by anyway that has a link to it, and moderators will still see it, so we can merge words from it. It is also accessible through some other back channels but it is mostly private.
I can't use my iPad for Japanese, since the iPad Japanese characters for tilde and question marks are not the same as the characters in the word list that is created with windows IME.
Can this be solved?
Can this be solved?
1 comment
Latest 1 day, 9 hours ago
jlptbootcamp 1 day, 9 hours ago
I think we've been trying to add alternatives to the words that have tildes to accept them without tildes. Can you link to some of the words that you are having problems with and we can add alternatives that don't have tildes so you can go over them that way.
I think we've been trying to add alternatives to the words that have tildes to accept them without tildes. Can you link to some of the words that you are having problems with and we can add alternatives that don't have tildes so you can go over them that way.
I stumbled upon a course that someone is using as a particle test:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
It obviously doesn't conform to the conventions at all, but we can't really merge it, and it would be a shame to delete it. Is there anything we can do with it? other than just let it sit limbo?
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
It obviously doesn't conform to the conventions at all, but we can't really merge it, and it would be a shame to delete it. Is there anything we can do with it? other than just let it sit limbo?
7 comments
Latest 3 days, 3 hours ago
ikenaiAndi 4 days, 10 hours ago
I agree. Actually, I find we could use more of this sort. Why not make a topic "Japanese grammar excercizes if you MUST move it somewhere away from the usual stuff?
Actually, this way it actually might get some attention, too. Maybe others add to that as well, who knows.
I agree. Actually, I find we could use more of this sort. Why not make a topic "Japanese grammar excercizes if you MUST move it somewhere away from the usual stuff?
Actually, this way it actually might get some attention, too. Maybe others add to that as well, who knows.
benwhately 4 days, 9 hours ago
I could create that topic if you think that it would be useful - let me know and I will do it at once. It would definitely be a shame to waste it if someone has worked out a good way to use the system for grammar.
Thanks
Ben
I could create that topic if you think that it would be useful - let me know and I will do it at once. It would definitely be a shame to waste it if someone has worked out a good way to use the system for grammar.
Thanks
Ben
ikenaiAndi 4 days, 3 hours ago
I can imagine all kinds of fun stuff doable with that. One could keep it English-free, present a verb in dictionary form and a sentence and the user has to conjugate it accordingly, for example.. however, multiple choice would be an incompatible concept ... and one has to enter a huge load of alternative answers ^^
I can imagine all kinds of fun stuff doable with that. One could keep it English-free, present a verb in dictionary form and a sentence and the user has to conjugate it accordingly, for example.. however, multiple choice would be an incompatible concept ... and one has to enter a huge load of alternative answers ^^
jlptbootcamp 3 days, 11 hours ago
@benwhately - I think this should probably be moved to another topic, that way it'll be easier to find and people can appreciate it more, but I don't know what we would name that topic, Japanese grammar?
@ikenaiAndi - I kind of thought that was what the sentence testing was going to do, but memrise isn't well suited for grammar (yet). Anyway, in a separate topic we can iron out how the testing should proceed without messing up the Japanese topic's system.
@benwhately - I think this should probably be moved to another topic, that way it'll be easier to find and people can appreciate it more, but I don't know what we would name that topic, Japanese grammar?
@ikenaiAndi - I kind of thought that was what the sentence testing was going to do, but memrise isn't well suited for grammar (yet). Anyway, in a separate topic we can iron out how the testing should proceed without messing up the Japanese topic's system.
I wondered why Japanese on Memrise was harder than I expected. So I played around with the CSS and found out sans serif just looks way better and more readable than serif. I added the following rule to the Stylebot extension for Chrome to achieve this:
body, div, span, object, iframe, h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, p, blockquote, pre, a, abbr, acronym, address, code, del, dfn, em, img, q, dl, dt, dd, ol, ul, li, fieldset, form, label, legend, table, caption, tbody, tfoot, thead, tr, th, td, article, aside, dialog, figure, footer, header, hgroup, nav, section {
font-family: sans-serif;
}
Now it would be nice if the Memrise team can pick it up from here with some user testing and possibly improving the site :)
body, div, span, object, iframe, h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, p, blockquote, pre, a, abbr, acronym, address, code, del, dfn, em, img, q, dl, dt, dd, ol, ul, li, fieldset, form, label, legend, table, caption, tbody, tfoot, thead, tr, th, td, article, aside, dialog, figure, footer, header, hgroup, nav, section {
font-family: sans-serif;
}
Now it would be nice if the Memrise team can pick it up from here with some user testing and possibly improving the site :)
11 comments
Latest 5 days, 2 hours ago
guaka 1 week ago
Thanks Andi. I'm okay with Stylebot for now though.
Meanwhile I found out that I find sans serif worse for Chinese characters. And currently it's not possible to add CSS to fix that. There's some Javascript setting MEMRISE.topic = 'japanese' though... Would be nice to have a body class="topic-japanese" to select on.
Thanks Andi. I'm okay with Stylebot for now though.
Meanwhile I found out that I find sans serif worse for Chinese characters. And currently it's not possible to add CSS to fix that. There's some Javascript setting MEMRISE.topic = 'japanese' though... Would be nice to have a body class="topic-japanese" to select on.
jlptbootcamp 6 days, 21 hours ago
try Meiryo if you are on windows, it is a font specifically designed to be readable on a screen at any resolution. Comes with Windows Vista+ or you can d/l it for Windows XP.
Here is my stylesheet, a little overboard but it works for me:
@-moz-document domain(memrise.com) {
p, .word-defn, .wrap span, .other-field, .value, .test-typing-input {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
}
.item-info a.word {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
font-size: 25px !important;
}
div.itembox a strong {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
font-size: 10px !important;
}
.word-value {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
font-size: 45px !important;
}
#pronunciation-value, #word-value {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
font-size: 20px !important;
}
#word-value {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
font-size: 80px !important;
}
.choice {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
font-size: 20px !important;
}
}
I use it with Stylish for Firefox, but I'm sure you can adapt it for your needs :)
try Meiryo if you are on windows, it is a font specifically designed to be readable on a screen at any resolution. Comes with Windows Vista+ or you can d/l it for Windows XP.
Here is my stylesheet, a little overboard but it works for me:
@-moz-document domain(memrise.com) {
p, .word-defn, .wrap span, .other-field, .value, .test-typing-input {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
}
.item-info a.word {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
font-size: 25px !important;
}
div.itembox a strong {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
font-size: 10px !important;
}
.word-value {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
font-size: 45px !important;
}
#pronunciation-value, #word-value {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
font-size: 20px !important;
}
#word-value {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
font-size: 80px !important;
}
.choice {
font-family: "Meiryo" !important;
font-size: 20px !important;
}
}
I use it with Stylish for Firefox, but I'm sure you can adapt it for your needs :)
jlptbootcamp 6 days, 21 hours ago
P.S. they did try to fix this once, but I guess it looked weird on the Chinese side of things so they are working on it again.
P.S. they did try to fix this once, but I guess it looked weird on the Chinese side of things so they are working on it again.
cacoethes 6 days, 2 hours ago
I also found an extension for Chrome that changes *everything* (on every site) into Meiryo. This is nice because you know you're always reading the kanji correctly, but it can also suck sometimes with formatting due to the Meiryo font... I personally like it though, so that might be worth a shot as well if you are using Japanese a lot. :)
https://chrome.google.com/w...
I also found an extension for Chrome that changes *everything* (on every site) into Meiryo. This is nice because you know you're always reading the kanji correctly, but it can also suck sometimes with formatting due to the Meiryo font... I personally like it though, so that might be worth a shot as well if you are using Japanese a lot. :)
https://chrome.google.com/w...
Tchael 5 days, 11 hours ago
Cacoethes, I can't wait to go home and install that. Seems handy for a multitude of things as well as forcing some rather annoying fonts on some websites to conform and be readable. :P
Thanks for the extension.
Cacoethes, I can't wait to go home and install that. Seems handy for a multitude of things as well as forcing some rather annoying fonts on some websites to conform and be readable. :P
Thanks for the extension.
dready 5 days, 4 hours ago
I had always assumed it was a corollary of http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/w...
It may not apply here, but.
I had always assumed it was a corollary of http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/w...
It may not apply here, but.
Tchael 5 days, 2 hours ago
And on topic to what you said Dready... due to similar radicals I'd imagine if it was harder to read 聞 over 闇 that would actually be a bad thing as you'd confuse the two merely due to bad writing.
But I don't have a study showing otherwise... :P
And on topic to what you said Dready... due to similar radicals I'd imagine if it was harder to read 聞 over 闇 that would actually be a bad thing as you'd confuse the two merely due to bad writing.
But I don't have a study showing otherwise... :P
guaka 5 days, 2 hours ago
Wow, dready, that's super interesting. ROFL, Tchael totally agree about Comic Sans :)
This article kinda fits my personal experience on Memrise. I started mostly learning Chinese, in which I was mostly a beginner, so the slightly harder to read font made sense, and now I've learned most Chinese characters with the harder to read font I don't want to switch back to the Sans serif font.
Now Japanese is another matter for me. I started to learn Japanese 20 years ago so when I started taking some Memrise courses I was really shocked at how hard it was to read the hiragana and katakana, with which I feel fairly confident usually. Maybe Memrise could allow switching between fonts on a language base? Let the slightly more difficult font be the default and suggest people with some experience in a language to switch to the easier font. (Or as suggested before, use CSS body classes like topic-japanese and topic-chinese so geekier types can set their own prefs with a bit of code :)
Wow, dready, that's super interesting. ROFL, Tchael totally agree about Comic Sans :)
This article kinda fits my personal experience on Memrise. I started mostly learning Chinese, in which I was mostly a beginner, so the slightly harder to read font made sense, and now I've learned most Chinese characters with the harder to read font I don't want to switch back to the Sans serif font.
Now Japanese is another matter for me. I started to learn Japanese 20 years ago so when I started taking some Memrise courses I was really shocked at how hard it was to read the hiragana and katakana, with which I feel fairly confident usually. Maybe Memrise could allow switching between fonts on a language base? Let the slightly more difficult font be the default and suggest people with some experience in a language to switch to the easier font. (Or as suggested before, use CSS body classes like topic-japanese and topic-chinese so geekier types can set their own prefs with a bit of code :)
Hi all,
it happens to me all the time when transcribing the kana for some words that the software considers as mistakes some correct answers. for example, if I transcribe じしゃく as 'jishaku' or ぶつかる as 'butsukaru' it will count them as mistakes, while じしょ as 'jisho' will be considered as correct. it's really annoying to guess the kana for every kanji and have 30% of correct answers. I tried to switch between keyboards (from romaji, to american, to uk english, to italian) but it doesn't seem to solve the problem. any suggestions?
it happens to me all the time when transcribing the kana for some words that the software considers as mistakes some correct answers. for example, if I transcribe じしゃく as 'jishaku' or ぶつかる as 'butsukaru' it will count them as mistakes, while じしょ as 'jisho' will be considered as correct. it's really annoying to guess the kana for every kanji and have 30% of correct answers. I tried to switch between keyboards (from romaji, to american, to uk english, to italian) but it doesn't seem to solve the problem. any suggestions?
14 comments
Latest 5 days, 12 hours ago
Tchael 6 days, 23 hours ago
Type the kana instead of typing the Roumaji. :P it's encouraged for studies as well as being bug-free for Memrise. There is no "Roumaji standard".
If you're trying to type the Roumaji for the Kanji - I'm unsure if it is needed as an alternative to answer the Kanji or if it goes off readings.
You can try "jisyaku" and "butukaru" and see if those work.
Type the kana instead of typing the Roumaji. :P it's encouraged for studies as well as being bug-free for Memrise. There is no "Roumaji standard".
If you're trying to type the Roumaji for the Kanji - I'm unsure if it is needed as an alternative to answer the Kanji or if it goes off readings.
You can try "jisyaku" and "butukaru" and see if those work.
jlptbootcamp 6 days, 21 hours ago
Can you give us a specific example? The system is designed to accept kana and kanji input only. The romaji that is accepted is completely by accident.
Are you using an IME that converts the romaji into kana for you? or an old-fashion kana keyboard method (where each key is a kana).
Can you give us a specific example? The system is designed to accept kana and kanji input only. The romaji that is accepted is completely by accident.
Are you using an IME that converts the romaji into kana for you? or an old-fashion kana keyboard method (where each key is a kana).
regularjohn 6 days, 17 hours ago
ok, sorry, I found out what the problem is. I just started using the software yesterday and I couldn't figure it out. I guess it depends on how users input the words and the 'solutions' (and looks like others reported the problem on this forum). as an example, when having to type 'ten', I tried 'juu', 'tou', '十', 'じゅう', 'とお' and none of them worked, just because the solution is '十 じゅう とお' (all three of them, separated by a space).
I mean, this is a great software and I'm absolutely loving it, but having to remember whether or not to use just the kanji or kanji and kana, or whether to insert a space or not, is a bit of a drawback. Keep up the good work :)
ok, sorry, I found out what the problem is. I just started using the software yesterday and I couldn't figure it out. I guess it depends on how users input the words and the 'solutions' (and looks like others reported the problem on this forum). as an example, when having to type 'ten', I tried 'juu', 'tou', '十', 'じゅう', 'とお' and none of them worked, just because the solution is '十 じゅう とお' (all three of them, separated by a space).
I mean, this is a great software and I'm absolutely loving it, but having to remember whether or not to use just the kanji or kanji and kana, or whether to insert a space or not, is a bit of a drawback. Keep up the good work :)
Tchael 6 days, 13 hours ago
A space should never be required. Please link to the course you're having issues with so I can fix that error. It's likely an input error with the one who made the course sometimes caused by forgetting to place an underscore '_' before alternative answers (I believe) or just placing all answers in one line instead of a main answer with alternatives.
Either way... what you are experiencing is a mistake in the course that we can fix for you. :P
A space should never be required. Please link to the course you're having issues with so I can fix that error. It's likely an input error with the one who made the course sometimes caused by forgetting to place an underscore '_' before alternative answers (I believe) or just placing all answers in one line instead of a main answer with alternatives.
Either way... what you are experiencing is a mistake in the course that we can fix for you. :P
Tchael 6 days, 6 hours ago
There is something greatly wrong with that entire course actually. This would take me hours to fix everything by hand.
All of the kanji+kana fields for words seem to be combined.
There is something greatly wrong with that entire course actually. This would take me hours to fix everything by hand.
All of the kanji+kana fields for words seem to be combined.
jlptbootcamp 6 days, 4 hours ago
Yeah that is an older deck that the featured community deck is based on. We are working on merging it with the main deck now but it about half way through the process. It's best to use the featured deck instead. That is the one getting actively edited/ moderated. Sorry for the confusion.
Yeah that is an older deck that the featured community deck is based on. We are working on merging it with the main deck now but it about half way through the process. It's best to use the featured deck instead. That is the one getting actively edited/ moderated. Sorry for the confusion.
ikenaiAndi 6 days, 3 hours ago
Just taking a quick look at this... thing made my eyes bleed.
Is it worth the trouble merging it? Looks like material for /dev/null
Just taking a quick look at this... thing made my eyes bleed.
Is it worth the trouble merging it? Looks like material for /dev/null
cacoethes 6 days, 3 hours ago
Tchael, you put an underscore in front of a word if you don't want the system to show it during a learning session. For example, I would do it if the main definition is "honor" and I add "honour" as an alternative.
The system automatically does this when words are merged, just so that weird alternatives aren't shown unless you choose to add them without the _ before them. That's why you see it so often, but it isn't necessary. Sorry if you already knew this! :)
Tchael, you put an underscore in front of a word if you don't want the system to show it during a learning session. For example, I would do it if the main definition is "honor" and I add "honour" as an alternative.
The system automatically does this when words are merged, just so that weird alternatives aren't shown unless you choose to add them without the _ before them. That's why you see it so often, but it isn't necessary. Sorry if you already knew this! :)
Tchael 5 days, 23 hours ago
Completely different issue cacoethes. :P Take a look at the deck and peek at a few of the words! It's an eyesore!
@Regularjohn
I guess your best bet would be to start with the featured deck. ^^; Sorry for the inconvenience.
Completely different issue cacoethes. :P Take a look at the deck and peek at a few of the words! It's an eyesore!
@Regularjohn
I guess your best bet would be to start with the featured deck. ^^; Sorry for the inconvenience.
cacoethes 5 days, 21 hours ago
Tchael, I was confused by this comment:
"It's likely an input error with the one who made the course sometimes caused by forgetting to place an underscore '_' before alternative answers"
I'm just curious to know what you meant by that..
Tchael, I was confused by this comment:
"It's likely an input error with the one who made the course sometimes caused by forgetting to place an underscore '_' before alternative answers"
I'm just curious to know what you meant by that..
Tchael 5 days, 12 hours ago
Because Roumaji isn't standardized it wouldn't make sense to teach 2-3 different Roumaji for a word. Take for example Roumaji:
Roumaji _Romaji
I've seen じゅう written both jyuu and jyu. 竜宮レナ from Higurashi I've seen "Ryuuguu" and "Ryugu" and "Ryuguu". If I was trying to learn how to read 竜宮 for a course on Higurashi names or something and for some reason I felt like having the roumaji included. It wouldn't make sense (to me) to have the alternatives be Ryuuguu Ryugu and Ryuguu all visible. It would make more sense for _Ryugu and _Ryuguu to be accepted because of the lack of standardization of roumaji.
However for alternatives like "jump" and "fly" which are very much different. It would make sense to have the alternative definition be shown.
That make more sense? :P
Because Roumaji isn't standardized it wouldn't make sense to teach 2-3 different Roumaji for a word. Take for example Roumaji:
Roumaji _Romaji
I've seen じゅう written both jyuu and jyu. 竜宮レナ from Higurashi I've seen "Ryuuguu" and "Ryugu" and "Ryuguu". If I was trying to learn how to read 竜宮 for a course on Higurashi names or something and for some reason I felt like having the roumaji included. It wouldn't make sense (to me) to have the alternatives be Ryuuguu Ryugu and Ryuguu all visible. It would make more sense for _Ryugu and _Ryuguu to be accepted because of the lack of standardization of roumaji.
However for alternatives like "jump" and "fly" which are very much different. It would make sense to have the alternative definition be shown.
That make more sense? :P
So as I'm starting the JLPT N3 vocab course that is featured, I have noticed that when it tests me for words, it won't show the kanji, just the kana. Currently when I'm adding new words, it'll show the pronunciation first, and a smaller picture of the kanji in the upper right corner. This is completely backwards in regards to how it should be. To be able to apply the vocabulary I'm learning to actually read things, I'm going to need to be able to recall all of the kanji, and then associate a meaning and a pronunciation to them.
This is also a problem in the JLPT N5 featured course, but for the N5 level I guess you could be a little more lenient and not testing on the kanji for all words. But for N3, words that are usually written in kanji should absolutely be tested for with their kanji. I understand that students of N5 do not need to know the meaning of 綺麗 or any other word that is commonly written without kanji. However for N3, words like 完了 are absolutely written this way in the vast majority of cases and if I want to be able to apply the vocab I have learned, I need to be able to recognize the words as it would be written in text articles and the like.
The most annoying part is that if I do try to enter 完了 in kanji when it wants me to enter its reading, かんりょう, memrise will simply respond that it wants the Japanese version of the word, not the kanji one. I would understand it if it worked the other way around, i.e. if I input the kana version, it would ask me to input the kanji version instead.
In summary, I'd like it if the kanji and kana columns were swapped so that I was made to memorize the kanji version of the word, with a little note of the pronunciation in kana in the top right corner when I'm adding new words. And then it would test me for the kanji version of the word, whether I have to input the kanji myself as a response to an english word, or read the kanji and answer to its meaning (and/or pronunciation). This is how it worked for a non-featured JLPT N4 course I took and it worked wonderfully. (This is the course I'm talking about /set/10003036/jlpt-n4/)
This is also a problem in the JLPT N5 featured course, but for the N5 level I guess you could be a little more lenient and not testing on the kanji for all words. But for N3, words that are usually written in kanji should absolutely be tested for with their kanji. I understand that students of N5 do not need to know the meaning of 綺麗 or any other word that is commonly written without kanji. However for N3, words like 完了 are absolutely written this way in the vast majority of cases and if I want to be able to apply the vocab I have learned, I need to be able to recognize the words as it would be written in text articles and the like.
The most annoying part is that if I do try to enter 完了 in kanji when it wants me to enter its reading, かんりょう, memrise will simply respond that it wants the Japanese version of the word, not the kanji one. I would understand it if it worked the other way around, i.e. if I input the kana version, it would ask me to input the kanji version instead.
In summary, I'd like it if the kanji and kana columns were swapped so that I was made to memorize the kanji version of the word, with a little note of the pronunciation in kana in the top right corner when I'm adding new words. And then it would test me for the kanji version of the word, whether I have to input the kanji myself as a response to an english word, or read the kanji and answer to its meaning (and/or pronunciation). This is how it worked for a non-featured JLPT N4 course I took and it worked wonderfully. (This is the course I'm talking about /set/10003036/jlpt-n4/)
31 comments
Latest 1 week ago
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 2 weeks ago
The way the system currently works is that you're given the kana first, tested on it a few times, and then shown the kanji and tested on that separately. It's not a bad idea at all to introduce kana and kanji at different times because this lowers the amount of up-front memorization required and further reinforces the word at a later time. Therefore, I don't think swapping the kana and kanji fields is necessarily a good idea.I do have some issues with the presentation though.1. Kanji are crammed into the corner and hard to read. Kanji are not meant to be italicized, and complex kanji kinda look like blobs in such a small space. I realize this is just because the kanji field is shoehorned into the pronunciation field used by other languages, but I think it'd be nice to have some changes specifically for Japanese.2. The system should always accept the kanji no matter what. Being told "sorry, we're looking for the Japanese" is *incredibly* frustrating. It's just second nature to turn kana into kanji when typing for many of us, and the system sometimes accepts the kanji and sometimes rejects it.3. I don't know about anyone else, but I had to remove the Chinese KaiTi font from Windows 7 so that Japanese would show up in a standard font on memrise. KaiTi is hand-written so many of the characters are different than the printed versions, plus it's hard to read. This could be really annoying for new users.
The way the system currently works is that you're given the kana first, tested on it a few times, and then shown the kanji and tested on that separately. It's not a bad idea at all to introduce kana and kanji at different times because this lowers the amount of up-front memorization required and further reinforces the word at a later time. Therefore, I don't think swapping the kana and kanji fields is necessarily a good idea.I do have some issues with the presentation though.1. Kanji are crammed into the corner and hard to read. Kanji are not meant to be italicized, and complex kanji kinda look like blobs in such a small space. I realize this is just because the kanji field is shoehorned into the pronunciation field used by other languages, but I think it'd be nice to have some changes specifically for Japanese.2. The system should always accept the kanji no matter what. Being told "sorry, we're looking for the Japanese" is *incredibly* frustrating. It's just second nature to turn kana into kanji when typing for many of us, and the system sometimes accepts the kanji and sometimes rejects it.3. I don't know about anyone else, but I had to remove the Chinese KaiTi font from Windows 7 so that Japanese would show up in a standard font on memrise. KaiTi is hand-written so many of the characters are different than the printed versions, plus it's hard to read. This could be really annoying for new users.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 2 weeks ago
The way the system currently works is that you're given the kana first, tested on it a few times, and then shown the kanji and tested on that separately. It's not a bad idea at all to introduce kana and kanji at different times because this lowers the amount of up-front memorization required and further reinforces the word at a later time. Therefore, I don't think swapping the kana and kanji fields is necessarily a good idea.I do have some issues with the presentation though.1. Kanji are crammed into the corner and hard to read. Kanji are not meant to be italicized, and complex kanji kinda look like blobs in such a small space. I realize this is just because the kanji field is shoehorned into the pronunciation field used by other languages, but I think it'd be nice to have some changes specifically for Japanese.2. The system should always accept the kanji no matter what. Being told "sorry, we're looking for the Japanese" is *incredibly* frustrating. It's just second nature to turn kana into kanji when typing for many of us, and the system sometimes accepts the kanji and sometimes rejects it.3. I don't know about anyone else, but I had to remove the Chinese KaiTi font from Windows 7 so that Japanese would show up in a standard font on memrise. KaiTi is hand-written so many of the characters are different than the printed versions, plus it's hard to read. This could be really annoying for new users.
The way the system currently works is that you're given the kana first, tested on it a few times, and then shown the kanji and tested on that separately. It's not a bad idea at all to introduce kana and kanji at different times because this lowers the amount of up-front memorization required and further reinforces the word at a later time. Therefore, I don't think swapping the kana and kanji fields is necessarily a good idea.I do have some issues with the presentation though.1. Kanji are crammed into the corner and hard to read. Kanji are not meant to be italicized, and complex kanji kinda look like blobs in such a small space. I realize this is just because the kanji field is shoehorned into the pronunciation field used by other languages, but I think it'd be nice to have some changes specifically for Japanese.2. The system should always accept the kanji no matter what. Being told "sorry, we're looking for the Japanese" is *incredibly* frustrating. It's just second nature to turn kana into kanji when typing for many of us, and the system sometimes accepts the kanji and sometimes rejects it.3. I don't know about anyone else, but I had to remove the Chinese KaiTi font from Windows 7 so that Japanese would show up in a standard font on memrise. KaiTi is hand-written so many of the characters are different than the printed versions, plus it's hard to read. This could be really annoying for new users.
adeny 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Thank you, I guess I just wasn't aware of how the system works. Do you know approximately how many kana tests they have you do? I find that I personally have less trouble remembering kanji symbols than kana pronunciation, so it's actually easier for me if they show up right away.Points 1 and 2 are spot on. I tried deleting said font but it was certainly easier said than done in Vista. A simpler way to change fonts would be A++.
Thank you, I guess I just wasn't aware of how the system works. Do you know approximately how many kana tests they have you do? I find that I personally have less trouble remembering kanji symbols than kana pronunciation, so it's actually easier for me if they show up right away.Points 1 and 2 are spot on. I tried deleting said font but it was certainly easier said than done in Vista. A simpler way to change fonts would be A++.
adeny 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Thank you, I guess I just wasn't aware of how the system works. Do you know approximately how many kana tests they have you do? I find that I personally have less trouble remembering kanji symbols than kana pronunciation, so it's actually easier for me if they show up right away.Points 1 and 2 are spot on. I tried deleting said font but it was certainly easier said than done in Vista. A simpler way to change fonts would be A++.
Thank you, I guess I just wasn't aware of how the system works. Do you know approximately how many kana tests they have you do? I find that I personally have less trouble remembering kanji symbols than kana pronunciation, so it's actually easier for me if they show up right away.Points 1 and 2 are spot on. I tried deleting said font but it was certainly easier said than done in Vista. A simpler way to change fonts would be A++.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I think you'll get the kanji tests after 3 or 4 successful kana ones. After that, it's kind of a crapshoot on whether the kanji is going to be accepted for the "normal" tests. Funny enough, right now I just got a kanji test and hastily pressed enter after typing the word in kana, and it got accepted anyway. I can't find any rhyme or reason for what's considered correct on any given test. /shrug
I think you'll get the kanji tests after 3 or 4 successful kana ones. After that, it's kind of a crapshoot on whether the kanji is going to be accepted for the "normal" tests. Funny enough, right now I just got a kanji test and hastily pressed enter after typing the word in kana, and it got accepted anyway. I can't find any rhyme or reason for what's considered correct on any given test. /shrug
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I think you'll get the kanji tests after 3 or 4 successful kana ones. After that, it's kind of a crapshoot on whether the kanji is going to be accepted for the "normal" tests. Funny enough, right now I just got a kanji test and hastily pressed enter after typing the word in kana, and it got accepted anyway. I can't find any rhyme or reason for what's considered correct on any given test. /shrug
I think you'll get the kanji tests after 3 or 4 successful kana ones. After that, it's kind of a crapshoot on whether the kanji is going to be accepted for the "normal" tests. Funny enough, right now I just got a kanji test and hastily pressed enter after typing the word in kana, and it got accepted anyway. I can't find any rhyme or reason for what's considered correct on any given test. /shrug
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 2 weeks ago
memrise is funny. "please enter the hiragana for the kanji above" which kanji? there's hiragana above. aight, let's enter hiragana anyways. "wrong, we are looking for the hiragana for this kanji" mmmkay. let's try the kanji then. あたり！ (>.<
memrise is funny. "please enter the hiragana for the kanji above" which kanji? there's hiragana above. aight, let's enter hiragana anyways. "wrong, we are looking for the hiragana for this kanji" mmmkay. let's try the kanji then. あたり！ (>.<
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 2 weeks ago
it also perceived メガネ as wrong. you should google and see how many times actual Japanese people DO write this word in katakana!^^
it also perceived メガネ as wrong. you should google and see how many times actual Japanese people DO write this word in katakana!^^
benwhately 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm really sorry that you have run into this - it sounds like the items that you have been learning have not been entered correctly into the database. Could you possible leave a comment on the word itself and we will get this checked out ASAP.Thanks!Ben
I'm really sorry that you have run into this - it sounds like the items that you have been learning have not been entered correctly into the database. Could you possible leave a comment on the word itself and we will get this checked out ASAP.Thanks!Ben
benwhately 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm really sorry that you have run into this - it sounds like the items that you have been learning have not been entered correctly into the database. Could you possible leave a comment on the word itself and we will get this checked out ASAP.Thanks!Ben
I'm really sorry that you have run into this - it sounds like the items that you have been learning have not been entered correctly into the database. Could you possible leave a comment on the word itself and we will get this checked out ASAP.Thanks!Ben
benwhately 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Thank you very much for these excellent points. Point 2 in particular is one that we should be able to fix pretty fast. I will try to get that done ASAP because it makes total sense. We will also try to get the formatting fixed very soon.Best wishesBen
Thank you very much for these excellent points. Point 2 in particular is one that we should be able to fix pretty fast. I will try to get that done ASAP because it makes total sense. We will also try to get the formatting fixed very soon.Best wishesBen
benwhately 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Thank you very much for these excellent points. Point 2 in particular is one that we should be able to fix pretty fast. I will try to get that done ASAP because it makes total sense. We will also try to get the formatting fixed very soon.Best wishesBen
Thank you very much for these excellent points. Point 2 in particular is one that we should be able to fix pretty fast. I will try to get that done ASAP because it makes total sense. We will also try to get the formatting fixed very soon.Best wishesBen
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Yes, let me see where I found this. It was 遊ぶ in either N2 or Kore, possibly N5 (AFAIK, these decks all use the same card). I'm on my way, will add a comment.edit: i left my comment, here it is:http://www.memrise.com/item/72...
Yes, let me see where I found this. It was 遊ぶ in either N2 or Kore, possibly N5 (AFAIK, these decks all use the same card). I'm on my way, will add a comment.edit: i left my comment, here it is:http://www.memrise.com/item/72...
cacoethes 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Hmm.. I am wondering, what are your opinions on learning from the Japanese Kanji topic? It tests kanji first and then tests you on the pronunciation later on. The kanji in the Japanese Kanji topic are large with the kana smaller underneath. This sounds like what you want.... :)
Hmm.. I am wondering, what are your opinions on learning from the Japanese Kanji topic? It tests kanji first and then tests you on the pronunciation later on. The kanji in the Japanese Kanji topic are large with the kana smaller underneath. This sounds like what you want.... :)
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I didn't check the Kanji section yet, because the N2 course is a featured one, so I guess it's pretty high quality.. and from what I can see (I'm only in 14% now, started on memrise a few days ago), it's actually very good.There is a N2 course in "Kanji" too, right? Did you check that out? What do you think about it?I'm a "lower intermediate", still working on those 6000 essential words (and no idea where I really stand, I seem to have learned some quite rare or advanced terms, but not some of the very common N5ers during the course of my studies until I came here), so I figured going after the vocabulary deck rather than the Kanji deck first was a good choice. However, I'm not very experienced with this page yet, its mechanics and how all the little things work, so every advice would be appreciated :)Overall, I think memrise is the best thing since sliced bread. The speed at which Ben replies to stuff here also encourages me to be patient with bugs. (If this forum let me open a thread, I'd have posted something along those lines already)
I didn't check the Kanji section yet, because the N2 course is a featured one, so I guess it's pretty high quality.. and from what I can see (I'm only in 14% now, started on memrise a few days ago), it's actually very good.There is a N2 course in "Kanji" too, right? Did you check that out? What do you think about it?I'm a "lower intermediate", still working on those 6000 essential words (and no idea where I really stand, I seem to have learned some quite rare or advanced terms, but not some of the very common N5ers during the course of my studies until I came here), so I figured going after the vocabulary deck rather than the Kanji deck first was a good choice. However, I'm not very experienced with this page yet, its mechanics and how all the little things work, so every advice would be appreciated :)Overall, I think memrise is the best thing since sliced bread. The speed at which Ben replies to stuff here also encourages me to be patient with bugs. (If this forum let me open a thread, I'd have posted something along those lines already)
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 2 weeks ago
might want to check the definitions of some words in the N2 community deck. some are ambiguous. それ、その.. i never know which one to pick. not because i don't know which one to use when, but they're indistinguishable for me when i'm being tested. if you could just clarify it like "this noun (close to the listener)" , i wouldn't confuse them anymore.you could also improve the visibility of transitive/intransitive. i never really got those vi,v5a etc.. just putting a "transitive/intransitive" up would be really helpful - or if you want to stick to those terms, put an explanation somewhere, so i don't always mix up stuff like 並ぶ、並べる anymore - which is _extremely_ annoying.
might want to check the definitions of some words in the N2 community deck. some are ambiguous. それ、その.. i never know which one to pick. not because i don't know which one to use when, but they're indistinguishable for me when i'm being tested. if you could just clarify it like "this noun (close to the listener)" , i wouldn't confuse them anymore.you could also improve the visibility of transitive/intransitive. i never really got those vi,v5a etc.. just putting a "transitive/intransitive" up would be really helpful - or if you want to stick to those terms, put an explanation somewhere, so i don't always mix up stuff like 並ぶ、並べる anymore - which is _extremely_ annoying.
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I've begun to ignore words. あの、あれ both mean the same damn thing and are tested with the same meaning, making it a matter of luck to get it right. I've never had a problem using them correctly (same for その、それ、あの、あれ、ここ、こっち、そこ、そっち et cetera), so I don't wanna stumble upon them over and over and over again because their damn timers reset continuously due to me failing the test. Certain words should either be tested within sentences or be phrased precisely. For あれ you can use "that over there", but for あの you better use "that (+noun) over there", or you do more harm than good by confusing the learner.It sucks that now a set will be stuck at something like 99%. まあ、いいや。仕方ないだろう。
I've begun to ignore words. あの、あれ both mean the same damn thing and are tested with the same meaning, making it a matter of luck to get it right. I've never had a problem using them correctly (same for その、それ、あの、あれ、ここ、こっち、そこ、そっち et cetera), so I don't wanna stumble upon them over and over and over again because their damn timers reset continuously due to me failing the test. Certain words should either be tested within sentences or be phrased precisely. For あれ you can use "that over there", but for あの you better use "that (+noun) over there", or you do more harm than good by confusing the learner.It sucks that now a set will be stuck at something like 99%. まあ、いいや。仕方ないだろう。
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I'd like to add that reading lengthy explanations or long lists of definitions is a no-go when a countdown is running, pressuring you to type in an answer. I'm not really convinced a countdown is required anyways. If I can't remember a word, I leave the field empty and hit enter to re-learn it.
I'd like to add that reading lengthy explanations or long lists of definitions is a no-go when a countdown is running, pressuring you to type in an answer. I'm not really convinced a countdown is required anyways. If I can't remember a word, I leave the field empty and hit enter to re-learn it.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I can't link anything on these forums, but if you go to WWWJDIC and click on Dictionary Codes at the top, you'll get a nice list of what all that vi, v5r stuff means. That should allow you to distinguish when a test wants 並ぶ or 並べる.I totally agree with それ・その・これ・この etc. Those all need to be redone so we're not guessing at which one we're supposed to use.
I can't link anything on these forums, but if you go to WWWJDIC and click on Dictionary Codes at the top, you'll get a nice list of what all that vi, v5r stuff means. That should allow you to distinguish when a test wants 並ぶ or 並べる.I totally agree with それ・その・これ・この etc. Those all need to be redone so we're not guessing at which one we're supposed to use.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I think the countdown is meant to be psychological. It provides some pressure in order to force you to remember things better. I'm no psychologist or behavioral scientist, but that's what I remember reading.
I think the countdown is meant to be psychological. It provides some pressure in order to force you to remember things better. I'm no psychologist or behavioral scientist, but that's what I remember reading.
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Thanks for the hint. I was totally at loss there :)P.S.: I hope we get an unignore button later... ^^
Thanks for the hint. I was totally at loss there :)P.S.: I hope we get an unignore button later... ^^
phoenixphreak 2 months, 2 weeks ago
This is true of several of the JLPT N5 and N4 Lists (that I've run in to so far).For example: JLPT N4 by GeckomayhemJLPT N4 Vocabulary by wmarimonJLPT N5 by guythreepIntermediate Japanese Vocabulary by ignotoJLPT N5 Words I need to Learn by benbassistetc.Almost all of these whole lists have the Japanese and Kanji categories reversed.
This is true of several of the JLPT N5 and N4 Lists (that I've run in to so far).For example: JLPT N4 by GeckomayhemJLPT N4 Vocabulary by wmarimonJLPT N5 by guythreepIntermediate Japanese Vocabulary by ignotoJLPT N5 Words I need to Learn by benbassistetc.Almost all of these whole lists have the Japanese and Kanji categories reversed.
benwhately 2 months, 2 weeks ago
It sounds like those lists should be switched to the "kanji" topic. Could you either leave a comment ont he discussion of those lists, or post a link to the sets, so that I can be sure that I am getting the right ones when I move them? Thanks!Ben
It sounds like those lists should be switched to the "kanji" topic. Could you either leave a comment ont he discussion of those lists, or post a link to the sets, so that I can be sure that I am getting the right ones when I move them? Thanks!Ben
phoenixphreak 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Yeah, I will do that very soon. But I think there are other phrases on those lists sometimes too that aren't Kanji focuses...
Yeah, I will do that very soon. But I think there are other phrases on those lists sometimes too that aren't Kanji focuses...
phoenixphreak 2 months, 1 week ago
I put comments on each of those courses, but here are some links:JLPT N4 by Geckomayhemhttp://www.memrise....JLPT N4 Vocabulary by wmarimonhttp://www.memrise.com... N5 by guythreephttp://www.memrise.com/set/100... Japanese Vocabulary by ignotohttp://www.memrise.com/s... N5 Words I need to Learn by benbassisthttp://www.memrise.com/set/100...and here are some more:http://www.memrise.com/set/100...http://www.memrise.com/set/100...http://www.memrise.com/set/100...Really, a lot of people have made courses without reading the FAQ on the correct way to input words. So there is this whole section of the dictionary with Kanji under the Japanese section or other screwy things. It's unfortunate since people studying, adjusting, and noting on those words aren't helping the greater Memrise system due to the schism between the two types of word sets.
I put comments on each of those courses, but here are some links:JLPT N4 by Geckomayhemhttp://www.memrise....JLPT N4 Vocabulary by wmarimonhttp://www.memrise.com... N5 by guythreephttp://www.memrise.com/set/100... Japanese Vocabulary by ignotohttp://www.memrise.com/s... N5 Words I need to Learn by benbassisthttp://www.memrise.com/set/100...and here are some more:http://www.memrise.com/set/100...http://www.memrise.com/set/100...http://www.memrise.com/set/100...Really, a lot of people have made courses without reading the FAQ on the correct way to input words. So there is this whole section of the dictionary with Kanji under the Japanese section or other screwy things. It's unfortunate since people studying, adjusting, and noting on those words aren't helping the greater Memrise system due to the schism between the two types of word sets.
usako 1 week, 3 days ago
As for the problem of kana and kanji sections, I think that it would be great if user could choose what will appear as the main word while "seeding" new plants. I know, that it is possible to choose learning method to "kanji" in "japanese vocabulary" section, but testing method in this differ a little bit and it seems to don't change anything while learning new words. Also in "japanese kanji" section, although kanji appears as the main word, testing method require memorizing English definition, what can cause a little problem for non-natives.
I think, that people who already know kanji, would probably find it easier to memorize word by its kanji that contains specific meaning by itself.
I don't know technical aspects of solution like that, but if it would be possible, I think it's worth of consideration.
I mean, option that allow every user to freely "switch" kana and kanji in "japanese vocabulary" section's sets they are learning (and of course switch it back every time they want).
As for the problem of kana and kanji sections, I think that it would be great if user could choose what will appear as the main word while "seeding" new plants. I know, that it is possible to choose learning method to "kanji" in "japanese vocabulary" section, but testing method in this differ a little bit and it seems to don't change anything while learning new words. Also in "japanese kanji" section, although kanji appears as the main word, testing method require memorizing English definition, what can cause a little problem for non-natives.
I think, that people who already know kanji, would probably find it easier to memorize word by its kanji that contains specific meaning by itself.
I don't know technical aspects of solution like that, but if it would be possible, I think it's worth of consideration.
I mean, option that allow every user to freely "switch" kana and kanji in "japanese vocabulary" section's sets they are learning (and of course switch it back every time they want).
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 3 days ago
You don't have to switch anything around to get both. You will see both. There's not really a primary portion to it.
The way it works now, you have to enter the Kana version repeatedly, so memrise assumes you know the word by its pronunciation.
Then it starts testing you on the Kanji.
That's basically how Japanese people learned them, too. They knew the words before they learned how to read / write them.
I actually prefer this method over the one in Japanese - Kanji, because I want to avoid having to learn Kanji and readings separately. I'd like to see a Kanji in context (of a word), so I have more than a visual clue.
You don't have to switch anything around to get both. You will see both. There's not really a primary portion to it.
The way it works now, you have to enter the Kana version repeatedly, so memrise assumes you know the word by its pronunciation.
Then it starts testing you on the Kanji.
That's basically how Japanese people learned them, too. They knew the words before they learned how to read / write them.
I actually prefer this method over the one in Japanese - Kanji, because I want to avoid having to learn Kanji and readings separately. I'd like to see a Kanji in context (of a word), so I have more than a visual clue.
usako 1 week, 3 days ago
I don't get it. Now, if words are added properly, it shows big kana word and then kanji flash only for a moment(while testing). I know, that I will be tested on kanji after "4 level of growth"(but even then, it often seems to back to kana) , but I think, for me it would be suitable to be tested this way from the beginning. There were some sets with reversed kanji and kana fields and I find it more practical and easy to memorize, so I thought It would be nice if user had a choice:) If it wouldn't affect set for other users and even the user who switched it into "kanji" could change it back any time, I think it wouldn't bother anyone.
I would just be glad if there was an option like this, but
I don't complain:P Just an indea:)
Hmm, in Japanese-Kanji, there are probably sets of separate kanji and you're tested on English definition as well, so it's little bit unconvenient for non-natives,,, It's getting like learning English instead, especially if set contains advanced vocabulary:P
I don't get it. Now, if words are added properly, it shows big kana word and then kanji flash only for a moment(while testing). I know, that I will be tested on kanji after "4 level of growth"(but even then, it often seems to back to kana) , but I think, for me it would be suitable to be tested this way from the beginning. There were some sets with reversed kanji and kana fields and I find it more practical and easy to memorize, so I thought It would be nice if user had a choice:) If it wouldn't affect set for other users and even the user who switched it into "kanji" could change it back any time, I think it wouldn't bother anyone.
I would just be glad if there was an option like this, but
I don't complain:P Just an indea:)
Hmm, in Japanese-Kanji, there are probably sets of separate kanji and you're tested on English definition as well, so it's little bit unconvenient for non-natives,,, It's getting like learning English instead, especially if set contains advanced vocabulary:P
cacoethes 1 week, 2 days ago
I agree with you completely, usako. I think it is something they are working on. I would like to be able to test from kanji to hiragana without having to use the separate topic "Kanji readings".
Usako, if you use the Japanese - Kanji section and want a definition added, please let me know! If you find some kanji with weird English definitions, we can change them to something more user friendly. I am organizing the section right now and have already changed a few meanings that were confusing. This is a community project, so I want the Japanese - Kanji section to be an area where all users feel comfortable learning.
I agree with you completely, usako. I think it is something they are working on. I would like to be able to test from kanji to hiragana without having to use the separate topic "Kanji readings".
Usako, if you use the Japanese - Kanji section and want a definition added, please let me know! If you find some kanji with weird English definitions, we can change them to something more user friendly. I am organizing the section right now and have already changed a few meanings that were confusing. This is a community project, so I want the Japanese - Kanji section to be an area where all users feel comfortable learning.
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 2 days ago
I see what you mean. Yeah, the Kanji never get introduced really, I hope that'll get fixed.
The phenomenon of being tested on Kana, too, comes from there being 2 separate facts memrise tests you on. You want to retain the pronunciation as well.
I see what you mean. Yeah, the Kanji never get introduced really, I hope that'll get fixed.
The phenomenon of being tested on Kana, too, comes from there being 2 separate facts memrise tests you on. You want to retain the pronunciation as well.
usako 1 week ago
Cacoethes:
Oh, they really working on something like this?:D It would be just great!
As for Japanese-Kanji section, I didn't mean that there are some confusing definitions, but system ask you to type English meaning. Of course it isn't wrong, but as long as you're not English-speaker, it's a little bit difficult to type English correctly for uncommon words(like in New jouyou kanji set and probably in other advanced sets). In fact, you need to memorize English word with more effort than Japanese.
Some other user's idea was to add option, that allow you to change testing method to don't have to type English, but Kana instead.
However, If I find any confusing definitions in Japanese-kanji sets, I will let you know!
Thanks!
Cacoethes:
Oh, they really working on something like this?:D It would be just great!
As for Japanese-Kanji section, I didn't mean that there are some confusing definitions, but system ask you to type English meaning. Of course it isn't wrong, but as long as you're not English-speaker, it's a little bit difficult to type English correctly for uncommon words(like in New jouyou kanji set and probably in other advanced sets). In fact, you need to memorize English word with more effort than Japanese.
Some other user's idea was to add option, that allow you to change testing method to don't have to type English, but Kana instead.
However, If I find any confusing definitions in Japanese-kanji sets, I will let you know!
Thanks!
Since I finished the list "Top 6000 Japanisch", you can now merge the "Japanisch" and 和独‥ドイツ語と日本語 topics. I'd like to become curator of that topic again, after the merge.
I just checked the "Japanisch" topic. Not ONE list follows the "Japanese" conventions. They are all in the wrong order / upside down. I don't know what to do with them... they actually amount to only around 2000 words all in all. All the words in the database of this topic are in the wrong order as well as not in dictionary form. There are many more problems like this...
What to do? I could just delete them all, probably re-upload them in a fixed version, but I'd hate to take credit for work I didn't do (i.e. my name as course creator, when I actually only fixed them).
I lean towards the "purge that topic first, then rename the 和独 topic to Japanisch" option. A handful of learners might be disgruntled, but a) it's less than 20 learners, b) none of the lists work as intended, as they're not conform to how the mother topic "Japanese" works.
I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this as well.
I just checked the "Japanisch" topic. Not ONE list follows the "Japanese" conventions. They are all in the wrong order / upside down. I don't know what to do with them... they actually amount to only around 2000 words all in all. All the words in the database of this topic are in the wrong order as well as not in dictionary form. There are many more problems like this...
What to do? I could just delete them all, probably re-upload them in a fixed version, but I'd hate to take credit for work I didn't do (i.e. my name as course creator, when I actually only fixed them).
I lean towards the "purge that topic first, then rename the 和独 topic to Japanisch" option. A handful of learners might be disgruntled, but a) it's less than 20 learners, b) none of the lists work as intended, as they're not conform to how the mother topic "Japanese" works.
I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on this as well.
43 comments
Latest 1 week ago
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Maybe ... rename the Japanisch topic to "Japanisch - Kanji", and mine to "Japanisch"?
That would keep those lists alive, the lists could continue and only the other stuff would have to be fixed.. such as the "put words into their dictionary form" I mentioned above.
Maybe ... rename the Japanisch topic to "Japanisch - Kanji", and mine to "Japanisch"?
That would keep those lists alive, the lists could continue and only the other stuff would have to be fixed.. such as the "put words into their dictionary form" I mentioned above.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 2 weeks ago
But then someone has to fix the "Japanisch - Kanji" topic, but there are hardly any German learners, and not one of them is a curator.. maybe just move all the stuff to /dev/null is the best option afterall...
But then someone has to fix the "Japanisch - Kanji" topic, but there are hardly any German learners, and not one of them is a curator.. maybe just move all the stuff to /dev/null is the best option afterall...
benwhately 1 month, 2 weeks ago
I think that it is best to keep them there, so that someone can pick that up should they want to. I have put your topic is as "Japanisch" as suggested. Once the new editing tools etc are in place, we may be able to get more people involved with fixing that topic up.
How does that sound?
Thanks
Ben
I think that it is best to keep them there, so that someone can pick that up should they want to. I have put your topic is as "Japanisch" as suggested. Once the new editing tools etc are in place, we may be able to get more people involved with fixing that topic up.
How does that sound?
Thanks
Ben
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Thanks. Let's do it like this.
Did you make me curator for that topic, too?
Thanks. Let's do it like this.
Did you make me curator for that topic, too?
benwhately 1 month, 2 weeks ago
no problem! Let me know if I can do anything else to help,
Thanks
Ben
no problem! Let me know if I can do anything else to help,
Thanks
Ben
Kiko 2 weeks, 4 days ago
Where do you find this "convention"? Why do you learn Katakana words in Hiragana first? You want me to know this, although there is no way for me, to come up with it by myself. Especially, this think with learning Katakana words in Hiragana first is really stupid. It will just lead to confusion in higher levels... You just made my day, thanks a lot -.-
Where do you find this "convention"? Why do you learn Katakana words in Hiragana first? You want me to know this, although there is no way for me, to come up with it by myself. Especially, this think with learning Katakana words in Hiragana first is really stupid. It will just lead to confusion in higher levels... You just made my day, thanks a lot -.-
benwhately 2 weeks, 3 days ago
@Kyokochan93, I am really sorry about this - there seems to have bee a misunderstanding - I don't think that anyone is suggesting that, are they?
It looks to me like all of the excellent lists that you have created are the ones that we have put into the "Japanisch - Kanji" topic. These two topic were created so as to mirror the way that the main English - Japanese topics are set up, and also so that you can keep your lists and work on them in exactly the same way as before, and see no interference. Does that make sense? Are you seeing any trouble has been caused? we are doing everything we can to ensure that this system will work for everyone, so please let me know where the problems are, and I will get them fixed right away.
Thanks , and my apologies once again for the misunderstanding.
best wishes
Ben
@Kyokochan93, I am really sorry about this - there seems to have bee a misunderstanding - I don't think that anyone is suggesting that, are they?
It looks to me like all of the excellent lists that you have created are the ones that we have put into the "Japanisch - Kanji" topic. These two topic were created so as to mirror the way that the main English - Japanese topics are set up, and also so that you can keep your lists and work on them in exactly the same way as before, and see no interference. Does that make sense? Are you seeing any trouble has been caused? we are doing everything we can to ensure that this system will work for everyone, so please let me know where the problems are, and I will get them fixed right away.
Thanks , and my apologies once again for the misunderstanding.
best wishes
Ben
Kiko 2 weeks, 3 days ago
My problem here is, that the communication doesn't work, as it would be best. I saw the post a month after ikenaiAndi posted it. Furthermore, the idea to learn the Furigana first and then the Kanji is really good, and I would like to change my list, so this is possible. However, in "Japanisch" you learn あいすくりーむ first and after a while you learn アイスクリーム. That doesn't make sense at all and I don't want to change my lists this way, especially because there are a lot of Katakana words.
Furthermore, I have used mostly the dictionary forms, only to give the possibility to learn the grammar points of some units I put some changed forms as well. It is my way to use the effect of learning sentence without putting sentences into the decks. memrise was supposed to also teach grammar. It is only possible with word forms different from the infinitive or dictionary form or with sentences, for which we have no oppinion to include them yet.
I can delete them, but I have to say I was pissed with the thought, that my decks get deleted, especially because they "only" include 2000 words.
My problem here is, that the communication doesn't work, as it would be best. I saw the post a month after ikenaiAndi posted it. Furthermore, the idea to learn the Furigana first and then the Kanji is really good, and I would like to change my list, so this is possible. However, in "Japanisch" you learn あいすくりーむ first and after a while you learn アイスクリーム. That doesn't make sense at all and I don't want to change my lists this way, especially because there are a lot of Katakana words.
Furthermore, I have used mostly the dictionary forms, only to give the possibility to learn the grammar points of some units I put some changed forms as well. It is my way to use the effect of learning sentence without putting sentences into the decks. memrise was supposed to also teach grammar. It is only possible with word forms different from the infinitive or dictionary form or with sentences, for which we have no oppinion to include them yet.
I can delete them, but I have to say I was pissed with the thought, that my decks get deleted, especially because they "only" include 2000 words.
benwhately 2 weeks, 3 days ago
First, I am really sorry that the communication han't worked in the best way possible - we are constantly trying to strike the right balance between spending time and resources on the learning features of the site, and on other user-features like tools for communication. At the moment the forums are definitely in need of more work. My sincere apologies for that, but please be assured that we are working on it.
- I admit that I can't understand the Japanisch conventions because my German isn't good enough, but I *thought* That they were in line with the main Japanese topic - ie that Kana was learned first, then the Kanji, but not HIragana before katakana. @ikenaiAndi, could you clarify that?
- I think that the question where ikenaiAndi asked if he should just delete your sets was just that - a question. He was asking me what the process should be for getting lists into the guidelines of the conventions. The process definitely shouldn't ever involve deleting other people's hard work. So we decided instead to create a topic that allowed your lists to stay just as they are. Does that make sense?
- it would be amazing if you could draw up some "conventions" for that topic, outlining the guidelines that you have followed when creating your lists - that way other people who want to add words in that way can give you a hand with the work in future.
How does that sound?
Apologies once again that due to the poor communication tools on the site, this discussion got off to a bad start, and thank you very much for all of your hard work on making those lists,
Best wishes
Ben
First, I am really sorry that the communication han't worked in the best way possible - we are constantly trying to strike the right balance between spending time and resources on the learning features of the site, and on other user-features like tools for communication. At the moment the forums are definitely in need of more work. My sincere apologies for that, but please be assured that we are working on it.
- I admit that I can't understand the Japanisch conventions because my German isn't good enough, but I *thought* That they were in line with the main Japanese topic - ie that Kana was learned first, then the Kanji, but not HIragana before katakana. @ikenaiAndi, could you clarify that?
- I think that the question where ikenaiAndi asked if he should just delete your sets was just that - a question. He was asking me what the process should be for getting lists into the guidelines of the conventions. The process definitely shouldn't ever involve deleting other people's hard work. So we decided instead to create a topic that allowed your lists to stay just as they are. Does that make sense?
- it would be amazing if you could draw up some "conventions" for that topic, outlining the guidelines that you have followed when creating your lists - that way other people who want to add words in that way can give you a hand with the work in future.
How does that sound?
Apologies once again that due to the poor communication tools on the site, this discussion got off to a bad start, and thank you very much for all of your hard work on making those lists,
Best wishes
Ben
Kiko 2 weeks, 3 days ago
@Ben, the question he asked here, was no question in German in the Japanisch-Kanji forum at all. That's what is annoying me. And I want to make the list so, that you can learn the Kana first and then the Kanji. But there are no conventions in Japanisch, and I do not understand everything of the Engisch one. Especially, how to design the excel tables, so that I don't have to add every word one by one.
I have left a comment on ikenaiAndi's wall, in the Japanisch forum and in the Japanisch-Kanji forum, I'm just waiting for reply.
@Ben, the question he asked here, was no question in German in the Japanisch-Kanji forum at all. That's what is annoying me. And I want to make the list so, that you can learn the Kana first and then the Kanji. But there are no conventions in Japanisch, and I do not understand everything of the Engisch one. Especially, how to design the excel tables, so that I don't have to add every word one by one.
I have left a comment on ikenaiAndi's wall, in the Japanisch forum and in the Japanisch-Kanji forum, I'm just waiting for reply.
benwhately 2 weeks, 3 days ago
Yes, I see that this is a tricky situation - largely caused by my bad German - he wanted to ask me a question about how to deal with it, so did so here in English, but we should also have made sure that the discussion was posted in German on the correct forum. This is one of the first topics that has been set up without English as a base language, and therefore which I cannot be totally involved in the discussions for, so we are going to have to work out the best processes for doing it as we go along. Clearly the way that we did it was not ideal, and I apologise for that.
For the spreadsheet uploading, there should now be a template spreadsheet that you can download that will have the correct column headings for your topic. That should make it easier, but if you have any questions please do ask me and I will help in any way I can.
Is it best for you two to continue this discussion here, or in the Japanisch forum? You should clearly have it in German, but could you possibly keep me up to date with any details that I might be able to help with.
Best wishes
Ben
Yes, I see that this is a tricky situation - largely caused by my bad German - he wanted to ask me a question about how to deal with it, so did so here in English, but we should also have made sure that the discussion was posted in German on the correct forum. This is one of the first topics that has been set up without English as a base language, and therefore which I cannot be totally involved in the discussions for, so we are going to have to work out the best processes for doing it as we go along. Clearly the way that we did it was not ideal, and I apologise for that.
For the spreadsheet uploading, there should now be a template spreadsheet that you can download that will have the correct column headings for your topic. That should make it easier, but if you have any questions please do ask me and I will help in any way I can.
Is it best for you two to continue this discussion here, or in the Japanisch forum? You should clearly have it in German, but could you possibly keep me up to date with any details that I might be able to help with.
Best wishes
Ben
Kiko 2 weeks, 3 days ago
I will make updates, if you want via email. Where can I find the download of the spreadsheet... :/
I will make updates, if you want via email. Where can I find the download of the spreadsheet... :/
benwhately 2 weeks, 3 days ago
Great.
If you go to your wordlist, and then "edit" and "upload spreadsheet" then you should see an option to download a template. Please let me know if that doesn't work.
Thanks!
Ben
Great.
If you go to your wordlist, and then "edit" and "upload spreadsheet" then you should see an option to download a template. Please let me know if that doesn't work.
Thanks!
Ben
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks, 3 days ago
It's not stupid to learn Katakana pronunciation via Hiragana. They translate 1:1.
There's also no way to misinterpret anything. Nothing to confuse in later levels.
Katakana are being used for stuff like animal names, fruits and the like, also for loanwords. With that being said:
You produce Katakana exactly the same way you produce Kanji:
- Type in Hiragana
- Press Space
- Select the word
- Press Enter
There's nothing miraculous about that. Kanji and Katakana both are the result of something you entered in Hiragana. Sure, you can also select Katakana directly, or Katakana half-width in your IME (depending on if it supports that feature - Microsoft and Google IME do, and I think ATOK as well), but it would be a PITA to toggle between the different modes all the time, hence no one does it that way.
There was no way to communicate in the local forum. A post from months ago and that's it. We don't have private message features here and I couldn't even access the post's author directly, because after the forum switch, it transformed into "memrise" as the OP.
However.
I'm here now, so if you'd like to discuss whatever, let's use this forum instead
I don't feel inclined to access the "Japanisch" forum the way it is when I just browse the forums and the topic doesn't even show up in the list :/
What do you think about that?
It's not stupid to learn Katakana pronunciation via Hiragana. They translate 1:1.
There's also no way to misinterpret anything. Nothing to confuse in later levels.
Katakana are being used for stuff like animal names, fruits and the like, also for loanwords. With that being said:
You produce Katakana exactly the same way you produce Kanji:
- Type in Hiragana
- Press Space
- Select the word
- Press Enter
There's nothing miraculous about that. Kanji and Katakana both are the result of something you entered in Hiragana. Sure, you can also select Katakana directly, or Katakana half-width in your IME (depending on if it supports that feature - Microsoft and Google IME do, and I think ATOK as well), but it would be a PITA to toggle between the different modes all the time, hence no one does it that way.
There was no way to communicate in the local forum. A post from months ago and that's it. We don't have private message features here and I couldn't even access the post's author directly, because after the forum switch, it transformed into "memrise" as the OP.
However.
I'm here now, so if you'd like to discuss whatever, let's use this forum instead
I don't feel inclined to access the "Japanisch" forum the way it is when I just browse the forums and the topic doesn't even show up in the list :/
What do you think about that?
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks, 3 days ago
To switch your lists around, download them from the list's edit page. There's a download button below.
You can then load the file in Excel or Open Office and just rename the rows to match "Kana" and "Kanji".
That's how things worked out here technically IIRC.
Now TBH, I don't actually care if you learn Katakana or Hiragana first. Become curator of the topic, too, it'll become a lot faster and better to work through corrections or tweaks then. Ben can make you one, enabling you to edit stuff from the dictionary itself.
よろしくお願いします
To switch your lists around, download them from the list's edit page. There's a download button below.
You can then load the file in Excel or Open Office and just rename the rows to match "Kana" and "Kanji".
That's how things worked out here technically IIRC.
Now TBH, I don't actually care if you learn Katakana or Hiragana first. Become curator of the topic, too, it'll become a lot faster and better to work through corrections or tweaks then. Ben can make you one, enabling you to edit stuff from the dictionary itself.
よろしくお願いします
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks, 3 days ago
The way the "Japanisch" topic works is indeed intended to closely mirror the way it works in the English based "Japanese".
We had several conventions there such as:
- Learn Kana first, then Kanji
- Learn the dictionary forms
This is the German conventions site of the "Japanisch" topic, please check it out:
http://www.memrise.com/topi...
It's a translation of the original "Japanese" conventions page, with slight modifications, to be conform to the way it works for learners of Japanese through English. We agreed on having it work the same across languages, because it makes it way easier for users and moderators alike.
The reason there have to be dictionary forms is, that memrise doesn't teach grammar.
Don't worry though. Ben has already announced that they'll add a "fill in the blanks" testing mode for all the vocab, with example sentences where the word in question is left out, like this:
買い物 （かいもの）
Einkauf (n; adj- no)
仕事が終わったら、____に行った。
Nach der Arbeit erledigte ich den Einkauf
(probably: "I went shopping after the work", see below)
You will be asked to fill in かいもの until you're familiar with the pronunciation, and 買い物 once you passed the according typing test a certain number of times.
I am, however, curious, how memrise will handle localized versions of example sentences. On sites such as tatoeba.org are German translations, but not many. Will you incorporate the English ones even for topics where the source language is different from English, at least as a placeholder? This would be a compromise; as long as we curators can then change the example sentences and localize them, this would work out.
You will -hopefully- also be able to add example sentences yourself, and probably even more than one for each word, as to not make learn people learn sentences by heart, but the word in question, in different settings, which would mean for Japanese, differently conjugated forms. To use above example sentence for a different word:
行く （いく）
gehen (v5k-s; vi; aux-v)
仕事が終わったら、買い物に_____。
Nach der Arbeit ging ich einkaufen.
Now, reading through this, several questions pop up. How is the user supposed to know what register of speech to use, or which exact tense? In this case, it could have been 行った、行ってた、行っていた、行ってきた、行きました、行っていきました、行ってきました and several others, depending on level of politeness, context and many more factors. Filling in 行く would be wrong in above case. Even the German version of the example sentences had to be changed slightly to highlight the word in question, from "den Einkauf erledigen" to "einkaufen gehen". There's no way to automatically make sure users always fill in what's expected from them, not even if they master the grammar perfectly, because some things can not be assumed from looking at a single sentence out of context and without knowing more about other factors sometimes.
Also, you can conjugate almost everything in Japanese, as it's a highly inflected language, and it'll be fun to try out the feature and see what solution you came up with for this. ^^
The way the "Japanisch" topic works is indeed intended to closely mirror the way it works in the English based "Japanese".
We had several conventions there such as:
- Learn Kana first, then Kanji
- Learn the dictionary forms
This is the German conventions site of the "Japanisch" topic, please check it out:
http://www.memrise.com/topi...
It's a translation of the original "Japanese" conventions page, with slight modifications, to be conform to the way it works for learners of Japanese through English. We agreed on having it work the same across languages, because it makes it way easier for users and moderators alike.
The reason there have to be dictionary forms is, that memrise doesn't teach grammar.
Don't worry though. Ben has already announced that they'll add a "fill in the blanks" testing mode for all the vocab, with example sentences where the word in question is left out, like this:
買い物 （かいもの）
Einkauf (n; adj- no)
仕事が終わったら、____に行った。
Nach der Arbeit erledigte ich den Einkauf
(probably: "I went shopping after the work", see below)
You will be asked to fill in かいもの until you're familiar with the pronunciation, and 買い物 once you passed the according typing test a certain number of times.
I am, however, curious, how memrise will handle localized versions of example sentences. On sites such as tatoeba.org are German translations, but not many. Will you incorporate the English ones even for topics where the source language is different from English, at least as a placeholder? This would be a compromise; as long as we curators can then change the example sentences and localize them, this would work out.
You will -hopefully- also be able to add example sentences yourself, and probably even more than one for each word, as to not make learn people learn sentences by heart, but the word in question, in different settings, which would mean for Japanese, differently conjugated forms. To use above example sentence for a different word:
行く （いく）
gehen (v5k-s; vi; aux-v)
仕事が終わったら、買い物に_____。
Nach der Arbeit ging ich einkaufen.
Now, reading through this, several questions pop up. How is the user supposed to know what register of speech to use, or which exact tense? In this case, it could have been 行った、行ってた、行っていた、行ってきた、行きました、行っていきました、行ってきました and several others, depending on level of politeness, context and many more factors. Filling in 行く would be wrong in above case. Even the German version of the example sentences had to be changed slightly to highlight the word in question, from "den Einkauf erledigen" to "einkaufen gehen". There's no way to automatically make sure users always fill in what's expected from them, not even if they master the grammar perfectly, because some things can not be assumed from looking at a single sentence out of context and without knowing more about other factors sometimes.
Also, you can conjugate almost everything in Japanese, as it's a highly inflected language, and it'll be fun to try out the feature and see what solution you came up with for this. ^^
Kiko 2 weeks, 2 days ago
Woah, you wrote so much (@_@). But I don't get why it is so difficult to write something in Hiragana and then press the F7 button on your keyboard to get the Katakana. Is much faster than searching through space. Yeah I can become curator, however I like the idea to learn Hiragana first and then Kanji. Only the way to learn Hiragana first and then Katakana isn't my way.
When I heard たばこ the first time, I thought you would use Katakana for this. I was wrong, you use Hiragana. Also the animals, not every animal is written in Katakana, some have Kanji and I also saw Hiragana. I talked about this with a few friends, who also learn Japanese and are on an high advanced level. I don't mean, that this says everything, but they also think it isn't okay to learn something you will never see like this.
Katakana is like Hiragana, you are right. They are both exactly the same sylable system, only the function differs. So you should learn Katakana like Hiragana and Hiragana like Katakana. Means you use them without thinking mmh what was this Katakana in Hiragana again..... 1-2-3 seconds later, oh yes it means this and that. It's like learning vocabulary the wrong way. It will just slow you down in reading and confuses a lot.
Mmmh.... I would change my decks so they can also be learned like yours, however, when we can't agree in the Katakana topic, can I just do this in Japanisch-Kanji? Will this system work their as well? I didn't saw the fields Kanji and Kana, when I wanted to change the vocabulary.
Woah, you wrote so much (@_@). But I don't get why it is so difficult to write something in Hiragana and then press the F7 button on your keyboard to get the Katakana. Is much faster than searching through space. Yeah I can become curator, however I like the idea to learn Hiragana first and then Kanji. Only the way to learn Hiragana first and then Katakana isn't my way.
When I heard たばこ the first time, I thought you would use Katakana for this. I was wrong, you use Hiragana. Also the animals, not every animal is written in Katakana, some have Kanji and I also saw Hiragana. I talked about this with a few friends, who also learn Japanese and are on an high advanced level. I don't mean, that this says everything, but they also think it isn't okay to learn something you will never see like this.
Katakana is like Hiragana, you are right. They are both exactly the same sylable system, only the function differs. So you should learn Katakana like Hiragana and Hiragana like Katakana. Means you use them without thinking mmh what was this Katakana in Hiragana again..... 1-2-3 seconds later, oh yes it means this and that. It's like learning vocabulary the wrong way. It will just slow you down in reading and confuses a lot.
Mmmh.... I would change my decks so they can also be learned like yours, however, when we can't agree in the Katakana topic, can I just do this in Japanisch-Kanji? Will this system work their as well? I didn't saw the fields Kanji and Kana, when I wanted to change the vocabulary.
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks, 2 days ago
You're right, it's not even a strict rule to write certain animals or fruits in Katakana. I've seen 猫 and ネコ in use.
I don't think it's the end of the world when one deck uses Hiragana for pronunciation and the other jumps straight to Katakana. The "learn Katakana through Hiragana" effect induced by having it the way I use in my sets is not the only way to approach it. It's even different for the "Japanese" topic that skips this step and uses Katakana directly. If you'd like to do it like that, let's agree on accepting both ways to do it.
The more important things are the order in which to learn the stuff and the dictionary forms. When I first discussed the "Japanisch" subject with Ben, we didn't even have a "Garden Wall" on memrise - no chance to communicate things properly.
I saw your message on my garden wall after I already entered this discussion here, but I went to the "Japanisch-Kanji" topic forum anyways. The way to get there through several screen was bothersome enough, so let's just stick to this one here, as it's accessible directly through the "forums" main page.
You're right, it's not even a strict rule to write certain animals or fruits in Katakana. I've seen 猫 and ネコ in use.
I don't think it's the end of the world when one deck uses Hiragana for pronunciation and the other jumps straight to Katakana. The "learn Katakana through Hiragana" effect induced by having it the way I use in my sets is not the only way to approach it. It's even different for the "Japanese" topic that skips this step and uses Katakana directly. If you'd like to do it like that, let's agree on accepting both ways to do it.
The more important things are the order in which to learn the stuff and the dictionary forms. When I first discussed the "Japanisch" subject with Ben, we didn't even have a "Garden Wall" on memrise - no chance to communicate things properly.
I saw your message on my garden wall after I already entered this discussion here, but I went to the "Japanisch-Kanji" topic forum anyways. The way to get there through several screen was bothersome enough, so let's just stick to this one here, as it's accessible directly through the "forums" main page.
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks, 2 days ago
@Ben: Can you please make Kyokochan93 a curator for the "Japanisch" topic?
@Ben: Can you please make Kyokochan93 a curator for the "Japanisch" topic?
Kiko 2 weeks, 1 day ago
Can I open a new post, with ideas for the sentence learning thing?
Have a few nice ideas, especially for Japanese.
Can I open a new post, with ideas for the sentence learning thing?
Have a few nice ideas, especially for Japanese.
neko-chan 2 weeks, 1 day ago
Today I discovered that the core 6000 course is also available in German and I was really, really happy - thanks a lot for that, I wanted to eventually do it on my own, by the time, I feel confident enough ^^" - but since I already learned about 36 % percent of the English course, I would really appreciate it, if the system would "see" that as it does with all the other courses I'm working on (though they are all English), so that I don't have to do that much a second time (though it might be a good review :-D) - is there any way to do this?
Thanks a lot!
Today I discovered that the core 6000 course is also available in German and I was really, really happy - thanks a lot for that, I wanted to eventually do it on my own, by the time, I feel confident enough ^^" - but since I already learned about 36 % percent of the English course, I would really appreciate it, if the system would "see" that as it does with all the other courses I'm working on (though they are all English), so that I don't have to do that much a second time (though it might be a good review :-D) - is there any way to do this?
Thanks a lot!
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks ago
Unfortunately, there's no way to transfer your progress.
I was already 1200 words into "Kore" when I decided to just make a German version. You can just rush through known content by planting 50 words in one go following this link:
http://www.memrise.com/cave...
I hope that eases the pain a little.
Unfortunately, there's no way to transfer your progress.
I was already 1200 words into "Kore" when I decided to just make a German version. You can just rush through known content by planting 50 words in one go following this link:
http://www.memrise.com/cave...
I hope that eases the pain a little.
benwhately 1 week ago
Sorry to have been absent from this thread for a bit! I have just been looking back over it, and it seems that we are close to having some agreement. The sticking point seems to be - and please correct me if I have misunderstood - that ikenaiAndi would like to have both katakana and hiragana added for words that don't have kanji; hiragana in the "Japanisch kana" field, and katakana in the "kanji" field. kiko would rather have either katakana or hiragana in the "Japanisch - Kana" field, and nothing in the Kanji field if there is no kanji.
Is that correct?
cTo get a compromise, it would be great to try to understand a little bit more about the reasons for learning a word both in hiragana and katakana. Is the argument that since the word can actually be written in either, you should get used to seeing it in either? There are not totally set rules over which alphabet is used, so it is sometimes hard to choose only one version - though sometimes is is possible to pick the much more common one, right? That seems sensible.
But I can also see that that might sometimes seem a bit confusing during testing. Particularly if it is a word where the katakana or hiragana is actually rarely used. How would it be to put the most common version in the "Japanisch - Kana" field, and then to add the other version as an "alternative Japanisch kana. This would mean that you could type either during testing. If both hiragana and katakana version are commonly used, then you could put both katakana and hiragana into the "japanisch - kana" field, separated by a semi colon. That would meant that you could still type either answer in a test, but that you would also get used to seeing that word written both ways.
What do you think?
If that doesn't sound good to either or both of you, then I am sure that we can think of something else - but if possible I would like to avoid having two different ways of entering words into the same wiki. That will just lead to a division of efforts and so a slowing in overall progress.
Hope that makes some sense!
Best wishes
Ben
Sorry to have been absent from this thread for a bit! I have just been looking back over it, and it seems that we are close to having some agreement. The sticking point seems to be - and please correct me if I have misunderstood - that ikenaiAndi would like to have both katakana and hiragana added for words that don't have kanji; hiragana in the "Japanisch kana" field, and katakana in the "kanji" field. kiko would rather have either katakana or hiragana in the "Japanisch - Kana" field, and nothing in the Kanji field if there is no kanji.
Is that correct?
cTo get a compromise, it would be great to try to understand a little bit more about the reasons for learning a word both in hiragana and katakana. Is the argument that since the word can actually be written in either, you should get used to seeing it in either? There are not totally set rules over which alphabet is used, so it is sometimes hard to choose only one version - though sometimes is is possible to pick the much more common one, right? That seems sensible.
But I can also see that that might sometimes seem a bit confusing during testing. Particularly if it is a word where the katakana or hiragana is actually rarely used. How would it be to put the most common version in the "Japanisch - Kana" field, and then to add the other version as an "alternative Japanisch kana. This would mean that you could type either during testing. If both hiragana and katakana version are commonly used, then you could put both katakana and hiragana into the "japanisch - kana" field, separated by a semi colon. That would meant that you could still type either answer in a test, but that you would also get used to seeing that word written both ways.
What do you think?
If that doesn't sound good to either or both of you, then I am sure that we can think of something else - but if possible I would like to avoid having two different ways of entering words into the same wiki. That will just lead to a division of efforts and so a slowing in overall progress.
Hope that makes some sense!
Best wishes
Ben
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
The thing is that Japanese, no matter the "end product", is always first written in Hiragana, whether it'll end up as Katakana (same syllables, same sound, just different looks and different purposes) or Kanji or stay in Hiragana.
You need Hiragana, because Japanese grammar is not compatible with the Kanji.
Those are originally Chinese, designed for Chinese. Japanese people applied the sledge hammer to make them fit in:.
Japanese is an inflected language, and the forms present in words have to be written in Hiragana (in this case, they're okurigana). You see it all over the place, so you can't live without them.
Take a simple verb like 食べる (to eat), you spell it taberu. Only the TA is written in Kanji. The BE RU are Hiragana. Conjugate it and it may morph into 食べた TA BE TA or 食べられちゃった TA BE RA RE CHA TTA - in all these cases, whatever follows the TA (represented by the Kanji) is written in Hiragana.
Many words in modern Japanese, formerly written in Kanji, have become "hiraganized" for various reasons, like 綺麗 becoming きれい or 分から becoming わかる, depending on various things, such as register of speech and so on.
Katakana are not as common and therefore harder to retain. That's why I decided to test the pronunciation via Hiragana - it's possible to live without Kanji and Katakana, but Hiragana are the most important script. If you need to look up a word you don't know the Kanji for, it'll be in Hiragana, not Katakana (that's invalid).
Hiragana are basically "the Japanese pinyin".
That's how it works, basically. Following the memrise system, you't get to input the Katakana anyways, as soon as you got the pronunciation down (in this case: in Hiragana)
However, it doesn't really matter for me if some people prefer to learn Katakana words directly in Katakana, or via Hiragana first.
I can tell you there are people out there who didn't bother with Katakana for a long time and somehow picked them up through exposure. Kana are only some 100, so it's really an irrelevant factor.
However, a word is a word, whether it's to be written in Hiragana, Katakana or Kanji, and its very first incarnation, technically and actually, even for Japanese kids, will be Hiragana. Hiragana are also faster and easier to learn.
For all of the above reasons, I will stick to Hiragana for pronunciation.
However, I don't mind other people skipping the Hiragana. To each their own.
Up until today, there hasn't been any list from anyone else than me anyways, so this whole discussion wasn't THAT important.
Looks like I'll just continue as usual and run the show until someone will eventually jump in and provide some content as well.
The thing is that Japanese, no matter the "end product", is always first written in Hiragana, whether it'll end up as Katakana (same syllables, same sound, just different looks and different purposes) or Kanji or stay in Hiragana.
You need Hiragana, because Japanese grammar is not compatible with the Kanji.
Those are originally Chinese, designed for Chinese. Japanese people applied the sledge hammer to make them fit in:.
Japanese is an inflected language, and the forms present in words have to be written in Hiragana (in this case, they're okurigana). You see it all over the place, so you can't live without them.
Take a simple verb like 食べる (to eat), you spell it taberu. Only the TA is written in Kanji. The BE RU are Hiragana. Conjugate it and it may morph into 食べた TA BE TA or 食べられちゃった TA BE RA RE CHA TTA - in all these cases, whatever follows the TA (represented by the Kanji) is written in Hiragana.
Many words in modern Japanese, formerly written in Kanji, have become "hiraganized" for various reasons, like 綺麗 becoming きれい or 分から becoming わかる, depending on various things, such as register of speech and so on.
Katakana are not as common and therefore harder to retain. That's why I decided to test the pronunciation via Hiragana - it's possible to live without Kanji and Katakana, but Hiragana are the most important script. If you need to look up a word you don't know the Kanji for, it'll be in Hiragana, not Katakana (that's invalid).
Hiragana are basically "the Japanese pinyin".
That's how it works, basically. Following the memrise system, you't get to input the Katakana anyways, as soon as you got the pronunciation down (in this case: in Hiragana)
However, it doesn't really matter for me if some people prefer to learn Katakana words directly in Katakana, or via Hiragana first.
I can tell you there are people out there who didn't bother with Katakana for a long time and somehow picked them up through exposure. Kana are only some 100, so it's really an irrelevant factor.
However, a word is a word, whether it's to be written in Hiragana, Katakana or Kanji, and its very first incarnation, technically and actually, even for Japanese kids, will be Hiragana. Hiragana are also faster and easier to learn.
For all of the above reasons, I will stick to Hiragana for pronunciation.
However, I don't mind other people skipping the Hiragana. To each their own.
Up until today, there hasn't been any list from anyone else than me anyways, so this whole discussion wasn't THAT important.
Looks like I'll just continue as usual and run the show until someone will eventually jump in and provide some content as well.
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
What it all boils down to is:
People might not be used to learn a word that's usually in Katakana in Hiragana first.
But IMHO that doesn't matter at all.
People also sometimes learn Kanji first or even in isolated fashion, or even with English readings.
With the role of Hiragana being THE system to represent the sounds, Hiragana are THE script I will use to test pronunciation.
The topic "Japanese" has the "skip Hiragana for Katakana words" thing (unwritten) going on, but since everything else works identically, this doesn't matter at all.
From the looks of how all this developed and where it ended, it sure seems to be more a kind of a "storm in a water glass" kind of "incident" anyways.
You're the boss, you decide. :)
What it all boils down to is:
People might not be used to learn a word that's usually in Katakana in Hiragana first.
But IMHO that doesn't matter at all.
People also sometimes learn Kanji first or even in isolated fashion, or even with English readings.
With the role of Hiragana being THE system to represent the sounds, Hiragana are THE script I will use to test pronunciation.
The topic "Japanese" has the "skip Hiragana for Katakana words" thing (unwritten) going on, but since everything else works identically, this doesn't matter at all.
From the looks of how all this developed and where it ended, it sure seems to be more a kind of a "storm in a water glass" kind of "incident" anyways.
You're the boss, you decide. :)
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
Ah, to correct your assumption, it would look like this:
word ・ pronunciation ・ definition
タバコ ・ たばこ ・ tobacco; cigarette
デパート ・ でぱーと ・ department store
These are loanwords and therefore written in Katakana.
Kanji look like this:
word ・ pronunciation ・ definition
医者 ・ いしゃ ・ doctor
横断歩道 ・ おうだんほどう ・ pedestrian crossing
Then there are the words written in only Hiragana anyways:
word ・ pronunciation ・ definition
ちょっと ・ ちょっと ・ a little
こういう ・ こういう ・ such a ... like this
You see, the WORD field will always contain the proper form in the end.
The PRONUNCIATION field will always be in Hiragana
The field name of WORD in "Japanisch" is "Kanji"
The field name of PRONUNCIATION is "Kana"
This might lead to the wrong assumption that only Kanji fit in the "word" field, and either Kana (Hiragana or Katakana) are fine in the "Kana" field. Maybe it would be good to clear that up and rename "Kana" to "Hiragana".
Ah, to correct your assumption, it would look like this:
word ・ pronunciation ・ definition
タバコ ・ たばこ ・ tobacco; cigarette
デパート ・ でぱーと ・ department store
These are loanwords and therefore written in Katakana.
Kanji look like this:
word ・ pronunciation ・ definition
医者 ・ いしゃ ・ doctor
横断歩道 ・ おうだんほどう ・ pedestrian crossing
Then there are the words written in only Hiragana anyways:
word ・ pronunciation ・ definition
ちょっと ・ ちょっと ・ a little
こういう ・ こういう ・ such a ... like this
You see, the WORD field will always contain the proper form in the end.
The PRONUNCIATION field will always be in Hiragana
The field name of WORD in "Japanisch" is "Kanji"
The field name of PRONUNCIATION is "Kana"
This might lead to the wrong assumption that only Kanji fit in the "word" field, and either Kana (Hiragana or Katakana) are fine in the "Kana" field. Maybe it would be good to clear that up and rename "Kana" to "Hiragana".
benwhately 1 week ago
Ah, I see, so the conception here is that the "Japanisch - Kana" field is actually a "pronunciation" field, and therefore written in HIragana, which the "Kanji" field is really the "actual word" field, and therefore is written in whichever of the three alphabets it is usually written in, right? That does make sense, and we could definitely re-name the columns accordingly.
kiko, what do you think?
The arguments against using the fields this way would be that you end up setting up two sets of scheduling on the words that have no kanji - one for the "pronunciation" field and one for the "word" field. For some words these will be identical, for some words they wil be hiragana and katakana. So you will essentially be focusing double time on those words.
The idea of having the two different fields and two different sets of scheduling was that it would allow you to focus extra time on words that have kanji, and learn to recognise those. But this system seems to fight against that.
Does that make sense?
Best wishes
Ben
Ah, I see, so the conception here is that the "Japanisch - Kana" field is actually a "pronunciation" field, and therefore written in HIragana, which the "Kanji" field is really the "actual word" field, and therefore is written in whichever of the three alphabets it is usually written in, right? That does make sense, and we could definitely re-name the columns accordingly.
kiko, what do you think?
The arguments against using the fields this way would be that you end up setting up two sets of scheduling on the words that have no kanji - one for the "pronunciation" field and one for the "word" field. For some words these will be identical, for some words they wil be hiragana and katakana. So you will essentially be focusing double time on those words.
The idea of having the two different fields and two different sets of scheduling was that it would allow you to focus extra time on words that have kanji, and learn to recognise those. But this system seems to fight against that.
Does that make sense?
Best wishes
Ben
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
By the way, in Japanese, as well as in Japanisch, KANJI pronunciations for vocab words are being represented by Hiragana only. Writing a Word in Katakana is wrong (unless you want to write it in the Japanese version of Italics for empahasis, THEN it would be Katakana, but that's not standard).
To streamline it, I'd really recommend to stick to
- Hiragana for pronunciation
- Whatever for word
By the way, in Japanese, as well as in Japanisch, KANJI pronunciations for vocab words are being represented by Hiragana only. Writing a Word in Katakana is wrong (unless you want to write it in the Japanese version of Italics for empahasis, THEN it would be Katakana, but that's not standard).
To streamline it, I'd really recommend to stick to
- Hiragana for pronunciation
- Whatever for word
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
Yes, you would set up a separate scheduling for the end product in Katakana, in Katakana word cases. The word would be the Katakana version, the pronunciation in Hiragana.
How do languages like German handle "pronunciation", are those filled with IPO transcripts?
Chinese sure has pinyin, right?
It wouldn't be a big deal to have the Katakana on a different timer, as you can switch whatever you don't need to see "inactive", according to your plans.
Yes, you would set up a separate scheduling for the end product in Katakana, in Katakana word cases. The word would be the Katakana version, the pronunciation in Hiragana.
How do languages like German handle "pronunciation", are those filled with IPO transcripts?
Chinese sure has pinyin, right?
It wouldn't be a big deal to have the Katakana on a different timer, as you can switch whatever you don't need to see "inactive", according to your plans.
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
I see the ちょっと、こういう problem. Ah, yes. In that case, the word field would have to be empty, or you'd get tested on them double.
Yes. That could be included in the conventions. Now.. this applies to "Japanese", too, since it`'s the same mechanic. You get to see words written in Kana twice.
Worse, in "Japanese", this point has never been discussed, so sometimes, the word is only in the pronunciation field, sometimes twice, in word, too. Leads to some words being tested twice as often despite being the same thing.
Ha, fun times.
I see the ちょっと、こういう problem. Ah, yes. In that case, the word field would have to be empty, or you'd get tested on them double.
Yes. That could be included in the conventions. Now.. this applies to "Japanese", too, since it`'s the same mechanic. You get to see words written in Kana twice.
Worse, in "Japanese", this point has never been discussed, so sometimes, the word is only in the pronunciation field, sometimes twice, in word, too. Leads to some words being tested twice as often despite being the same thing.
Ha, fun times.
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
And to top that, since Japanese uses Katakana for Katakana words both in pronunciation and word, you get to see the Katakana version twice. Hiragana are both word and pronunciation for Hiragana words, same problem there.
AND highly irregular due to it being handled this way here, that way there, because it has never been regulated.
You just opened a can of worms.
And to top that, since Japanese uses Katakana for Katakana words both in pronunciation and word, you get to see the Katakana version twice. Hiragana are both word and pronunciation for Hiragana words, same problem there.
AND highly irregular due to it being handled this way here, that way there, because it has never been regulated.
You just opened a can of worms.
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
I can tell you that:
- People usually learn Katakana words in Katakana
- Kanji are written in Hiragana for pronunciation
- Hiragana words only need to be taught in Hiragana
And:
- People will find it unusual to enter Hiragana as pronunciation for Katakana words
- Writing ANYTHING NOT Katakana in Katakana is wrong, except for emphasis
- Writing Katakana words in Hiragana is acceptable under certain circumstances
However,
- To make it workable, either add a third field and name the fields Kanji, Katakana, Hiragana and in case of the Katakana words, remove the pronunciation schedule as soon as someone reached the "Katakana level", or..
..yeah, I dunno. Seriously. This is a problem. Yet another example of how something originally designed for Chinese collides with Japanese-specific mechanisms. ^^
Might also check all languages across the board to identify "rogue pronunciation entries" and to clean them up.
I can tell you that:
- People usually learn Katakana words in Katakana
- Kanji are written in Hiragana for pronunciation
- Hiragana words only need to be taught in Hiragana
And:
- People will find it unusual to enter Hiragana as pronunciation for Katakana words
- Writing ANYTHING NOT Katakana in Katakana is wrong, except for emphasis
- Writing Katakana words in Hiragana is acceptable under certain circumstances
However,
- To make it workable, either add a third field and name the fields Kanji, Katakana, Hiragana and in case of the Katakana words, remove the pronunciation schedule as soon as someone reached the "Katakana level", or..
..yeah, I dunno. Seriously. This is a problem. Yet another example of how something originally designed for Chinese collides with Japanese-specific mechanisms. ^^
Might also check all languages across the board to identify "rogue pronunciation entries" and to clean them up.
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
Afterall, yes,
- add a Katakana field.
- on reaching "level 4", remove test on pronunciation for words containing Katakana
- Have pronunciation set as Hiragana by default
- Have word set as whatever is correctly used in standardized writing
And Ben, I have another great news for you.
There are words in mixed script, like 精神的ショック (psychological shock), which are 2 words, but are a set expression.
Japanese people do stuff like this all the time.
Set expressions such as こういう are actually words, こう and いう
Stuff like どういたしまして are actually どう and いたす, conjugated
But that's a minor problem. It'd be all right to enter 精神的ショック as a "Kanji word", because it actually contains Kanji.
You would have 3 fields:
- Pronunciation (Hiragana)
- Word (Katakana)
- Word (Kanji)
The field "Word (Hiragana)" is obviously superfluous.
Then you have 2 timers:
- Pronunciation
- Word
If word = Kanji, continue as normal
If word = Katakana, remove timer on "pronunciation"
If word = Hiragana, you would only ever have this 1 timer.
This would clear the mess up.
Afterall, yes,
- add a Katakana field.
- on reaching "level 4", remove test on pronunciation for words containing Katakana
- Have pronunciation set as Hiragana by default
- Have word set as whatever is correctly used in standardized writing
And Ben, I have another great news for you.
There are words in mixed script, like 精神的ショック (psychological shock), which are 2 words, but are a set expression.
Japanese people do stuff like this all the time.
Set expressions such as こういう are actually words, こう and いう
Stuff like どういたしまして are actually どう and いたす, conjugated
But that's a minor problem. It'd be all right to enter 精神的ショック as a "Kanji word", because it actually contains Kanji.
You would have 3 fields:
- Pronunciation (Hiragana)
- Word (Katakana)
- Word (Kanji)
The field "Word (Hiragana)" is obviously superfluous.
Then you have 2 timers:
- Pronunciation
- Word
If word = Kanji, continue as normal
If word = Katakana, remove timer on "pronunciation"
If word = Hiragana, you would only ever have this 1 timer.
This would clear the mess up.
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
I wonder, if one doesn't use the pronunciation field, the word test would jump right to the according test, right?
Assuming you would leave the Hiragana field blank as a creator/curator for a Katakana word, it would test on Katakana from the start?
In that case, Katakana words would not necessarily NEED a pronunciation anyways. Can't hurt, but.. you know, old habits die hard.
I wonder, if one doesn't use the pronunciation field, the word test would jump right to the according test, right?
Assuming you would leave the Hiragana field blank as a creator/curator for a Katakana word, it would test on Katakana from the start?
In that case, Katakana words would not necessarily NEED a pronunciation anyways. Can't hurt, but.. you know, old habits die hard.
benwhately 1 week ago
Wow, thank you for all of that! I will try to answer it all.
in german the "pronunciation" field is renamed "plurals and inflected forms", and is not tested on by default.
You can make the whole "pronunciation" field (in the case of the Japanisch topic at the moment, this is being used for the full "word", in the case of "Japanese" it is used for the "kanji") not tested on, but in that case you would also not be tested on the kanji. It is just one setting for whether that field is used or not, it doesn't adapt depending on what is in that field.
in "Japanese" words' pronunciation are put in the "Kana" field in either katakana or hiragana, depending on which is more common, and then the kanji is in the kanji field. If there is no kanji, then the kanji field is blank. So the issue doesn't come up. The Kana field also accepts either hiragana or katakana if both are needed.
I think that there is some confusion about the "pronunciation" field: there is not a "pronunciation" field in either Japanese or Japanisch. There is a field that is called "pronunciation" when it is used in other topics, but for these it has been renamed "Kanji". That is confusing, I know, sorry about that.
So in the Japanese topic, and under the plan that I outlined above for how this topic *could* be set up, we would not have any pronunciation field, and would have no double testing. We would have a kana field, which would show either the hiragana or the katakana, or both if that was needed, and then the kanji in the kanji field. So only items with kanji get double scheduling set up.
Likewise mixed katakana/hiragana would be fine - just enter what is the most common way of seeing it. ANd mixed kanji/kana would also be fine in the kanji field.
Does that not clear the mess up too, but without the need to change the scheduling depending on what alphabet is in there? (which is going to be pretty tricky to do I'm afraid)
Thanks
Ben
Wow, thank you for all of that! I will try to answer it all.
in german the "pronunciation" field is renamed "plurals and inflected forms", and is not tested on by default.
You can make the whole "pronunciation" field (in the case of the Japanisch topic at the moment, this is being used for the full "word", in the case of "Japanese" it is used for the "kanji") not tested on, but in that case you would also not be tested on the kanji. It is just one setting for whether that field is used or not, it doesn't adapt depending on what is in that field.
in "Japanese" words' pronunciation are put in the "Kana" field in either katakana or hiragana, depending on which is more common, and then the kanji is in the kanji field. If there is no kanji, then the kanji field is blank. So the issue doesn't come up. The Kana field also accepts either hiragana or katakana if both are needed.
I think that there is some confusion about the "pronunciation" field: there is not a "pronunciation" field in either Japanese or Japanisch. There is a field that is called "pronunciation" when it is used in other topics, but for these it has been renamed "Kanji". That is confusing, I know, sorry about that.
So in the Japanese topic, and under the plan that I outlined above for how this topic *could* be set up, we would not have any pronunciation field, and would have no double testing. We would have a kana field, which would show either the hiragana or the katakana, or both if that was needed, and then the kanji in the kanji field. So only items with kanji get double scheduling set up.
Likewise mixed katakana/hiragana would be fine - just enter what is the most common way of seeing it. ANd mixed kanji/kana would also be fine in the kanji field.
Does that not clear the mess up too, but without the need to change the scheduling depending on what alphabet is in there? (which is going to be pretty tricky to do I'm afraid)
Thanks
Ben
benwhately 1 week ago
re leaving the "pronunciation" field blank - in this topic the "pronunciation" (meaning the HIragana or Kana field, not meaning the field that is normally called the "pronunciation" field...!) is in the main "word" field. This is the one that is introduced first during learning. This field can't be blank I'm afraid, because the system requires each word to have *something* in both the two main fields.
Sorry about that,
Thanks
Ben
re leaving the "pronunciation" field blank - in this topic the "pronunciation" (meaning the HIragana or Kana field, not meaning the field that is normally called the "pronunciation" field...!) is in the main "word" field. This is the one that is introduced first during learning. This field can't be blank I'm afraid, because the system requires each word to have *something* in both the two main fields.
Sorry about that,
Thanks
Ben
ikenaiAndi 1 week ago
I see.
Well, in this case, I will leave it as is. It doesn't hurt to be tested first on Hiragana, then the Katakana.
However, for words with Hiragana as the final writing, I need to remove the entry in the "Kanji" field.
The field names would be
Kanji -> Wort,
Kana -> Hiragana.
The rest is all right.
I see.
Well, in this case, I will leave it as is. It doesn't hurt to be tested first on Hiragana, then the Katakana.
However, for words with Hiragana as the final writing, I need to remove the entry in the "Kanji" field.
The field names would be
Kanji -> Wort,
Kana -> Hiragana.
The rest is all right.
Is there anything like this yet? Great site, but I'm finding it hard to search for things here.
1 comment
Latest 1 week ago
benwhately 1 week ago
I'm afraid we don't have a topic that words that way yet - you can see all the Japanese wikis by going to "Topics" and then "Japanese". There is a romaji topic, but not one with romaji and hiragana. We are going to be adjusting the marking program so that it will accept romaji when you are asked to type the hiragana - might that help?
What exactly are you looking to be tested on? typing the romaji for hiragana? That can be done in the "Japanese - Kana" topic, which is set up for learning to read the Kana.
I hope that helps, please let me know if you have any other questions,
Best wishes
Ben
I'm afraid we don't have a topic that words that way yet - you can see all the Japanese wikis by going to "Topics" and then "Japanese". There is a romaji topic, but not one with romaji and hiragana. We are going to be adjusting the marking program so that it will accept romaji when you are asked to type the hiragana - might that help?
What exactly are you looking to be tested on? typing the romaji for hiragana? That can be done in the "Japanese - Kana" topic, which is set up for learning to read the Kana.
I hope that helps, please let me know if you have any other questions,
Best wishes
Ben
http://www.memrise.com/cave...
tangorin.com says きんろうかんしゃのひ
the word as entered says きんろうんしゃのひ (i.e. missing か).
If I'm right, how can I get this corrected (so I don't have to remember to spell it incorrectly to pass).
If I'm wrong and this spelling is OK, then sorry :-)
tangorin.com says きんろうかんしゃのひ
the word as entered says きんろうんしゃのひ (i.e. missing か).
If I'm right, how can I get this corrected (so I don't have to remember to spell it incorrectly to pass).
If I'm wrong and this spelling is OK, then sorry :-)
3 comments
Latest 1 week, 1 day ago
Tchael 1 week, 2 days ago
It seems it was missing か so I fixed that for you. Although you linked to the "Start This Course" page or something and I started on 17th day. :P But I shuffled through it and found Labour Thanksgiving Day and fixed it for you.
It seems it was missing か so I fixed that for you. Although you linked to the "Start This Course" page or something and I started on 17th day. :P But I shuffled through it and found Labour Thanksgiving Day and fixed it for you.
antonioc 1 week, 1 day ago
Ｔｈａｎｋｓ． Ｔｏ ｂｅ honest I've no idea how to correctly link to a specific word in a specific course, so I just navigated to it and copied whatever was in the address bar. If I find a problem with anything in Kore (Kore 5988 unique words ...) I'll ask how to provide a more specific link :-)
Thanks again for fixing up the discrepancy.
Ｔｈａｎｋｓ． Ｔｏ ｂｅ honest I've no idea how to correctly link to a specific word in a specific course, so I just navigated to it and copied whatever was in the address bar. If I find a problem with anything in Kore (Kore 5988 unique words ...) I'll ask how to provide a more specific link :-)
Thanks again for fixing up the discrepancy.
For testing purposes?
It'd be nice if beginners, when being given a multiple choice question on Kana would perhaps see めぬねれ as "more likely" options when being tested on one of the four.
This could further help provide a tough decision rather than seeing options such as や く さ め when testing for "め". Often times you haven't even learned や at this point so it becomes two that you learned earlier in the course and likely know or that new, strange kana. Not too hard of a choice. :P
--Suggestion after watching my cousin learn the kana.
It'd be nice if beginners, when being given a multiple choice question on Kana would perhaps see めぬねれ as "more likely" options when being tested on one of the four.
This could further help provide a tough decision rather than seeing options such as や く さ め when testing for "め". Often times you haven't even learned や at this point so it becomes two that you learned earlier in the course and likely know or that new, strange kana. Not too hard of a choice. :P
--Suggestion after watching my cousin learn the kana.
3 comments
Latest 1 week, 1 day ago
benwhately 1 week, 1 day ago
Yes, we do use the confusables to generate the multiple choice answers, but they need to be added to the database first. We also progressively use them more to make the tests harder as you go along, so the confusable characters will appear more later on.
It would be great to have more added!
Thanks
Ben
Yes, we do use the confusables to generate the multiple choice answers, but they need to be added to the database first. We also progressively use them more to make the tests harder as you go along, so the confusable characters will appear more later on.
It would be great to have more added!
Thanks
Ben
I added cacoethes as a mempal 3 times now. every time i check, she ain't added anymore.
7 comments
Latest 1 week, 1 day ago
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 1 day ago
Not sure yet this is worth a bug report, maybe it's just me whose mempals enter the void. :o
Not sure yet this is worth a bug report, maybe it's just me whose mempals enter the void. :o
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 1 day ago
By the way, I just checked and had to add you again, too. Something seems to be broken, probably only a glitch.
By the way, I just checked and had to add you again, too. Something seems to be broken, probably only a glitch.
benwhately 1 week, 1 day ago
I will check this out - is it only cacoethes, or do other mempals disappear?
Thanks
Ben
I will check this out - is it only cacoethes, or do other mempals disappear?
Thanks
Ben
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 1 day ago
Giton disappeared as well, I didn't check others though.
Might just be a display bug on the profile page of those users, but who knows.
Win7, Firefox 12.0
Giton disappeared as well, I didn't check others though.
Might just be a display bug on the profile page of those users, but who knows.
Win7, Firefox 12.0
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 1 day ago
Just checked again. Seems to be a problem with cacoethes, not in general.
Just checked again. Seems to be a problem with cacoethes, not in general.
Ahoi,
Please take a look at these sets, which are 100% identical in content and order of words:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
You will notice that in the "Japanese" version, the Kanji are included in the overview, while in the "Japanisch" version, they're not.
It doesn't bother me that "definition" is not "Deutsch", but I'd love to have the Kanji visible. It gives the impression they'd not be included, while they really are.
Please take a look at these sets, which are 100% identical in content and order of words:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
You will notice that in the "Japanese" version, the Kanji are included in the overview, while in the "Japanisch" version, they're not.
It doesn't bother me that "definition" is not "Deutsch", but I'd love to have the Kanji visible. It gives the impression they'd not be included, while they really are.
0 comments
I like the new feature to add sample sentences. I'm guessing this is to be used for the sentence testing?
One feature I'd like to suggest though is to be able to write the sentence in all kana as well as full kanji (kanji and kana mixed). That way if people don't know how to read the kanji they can just check out the kana below it. I've made a sample sentence that way for 'charm':
http://www.memrise.com/item...
It would be nice if these sentences could be displayed one on top of the other (I did that by adding a break but, it would be good as a feature of the mem). Kanji first than kana below it. Possible the kanji sentence could be in a bigger font. The other option is to put ruby or furigana on top of the kanji to add in pronunciation, but I find this just becomes a crutch and instead of reading the kanji, I always end up reading the furigana on top.
People can also use plugins like rikai-kun and rikai-chan (that will display the kana for kanji when you highlight it in the browser window) to help them as well, but it would be great if it was just there and the user didn't have to do any installing/highlighting to see the kana.
Also, I used to add some sample expressions/collocations that are used with the word in the samples section, but the new format doesn't really allow it. Do you think there should be a collocation mem?
Anyway, great to see the improvement.
One feature I'd like to suggest though is to be able to write the sentence in all kana as well as full kanji (kanji and kana mixed). That way if people don't know how to read the kanji they can just check out the kana below it. I've made a sample sentence that way for 'charm':
http://www.memrise.com/item...
It would be nice if these sentences could be displayed one on top of the other (I did that by adding a break but, it would be good as a feature of the mem). Kanji first than kana below it. Possible the kanji sentence could be in a bigger font. The other option is to put ruby or furigana on top of the kanji to add in pronunciation, but I find this just becomes a crutch and instead of reading the kanji, I always end up reading the furigana on top.
People can also use plugins like rikai-kun and rikai-chan (that will display the kana for kanji when you highlight it in the browser window) to help them as well, but it would be great if it was just there and the user didn't have to do any installing/highlighting to see the kana.
Also, I used to add some sample expressions/collocations that are used with the word in the samples section, but the new format doesn't really allow it. Do you think there should be a collocation mem?
Anyway, great to see the improvement.
6 comments
Latest 1 week, 1 day ago
Tchael 1 week, 3 days ago
I like what Tae Kim did on his grammar guide. If you mouse-over the kanji it shows the definition and reading without needing Rikai-chan. I find having to mouse-over the kanji rather than simply having it visible on the screen such as furigana or a sentence below/above the kanji has me use it as a crutch less.
I agree with subconsciously just using furigana as a crutch but only if it's visible without me actively making it so. Mousing over is a great solution in my opinion.
I like what Tae Kim did on his grammar guide. If you mouse-over the kanji it shows the definition and reading without needing Rikai-chan. I find having to mouse-over the kanji rather than simply having it visible on the screen such as furigana or a sentence below/above the kanji has me use it as a crutch less.
I agree with subconsciously just using furigana as a crutch but only if it's visible without me actively making it so. Mousing over is a great solution in my opinion.
benwhately 1 week, 2 days ago
Yes, this will be used for testing from samples - the structure is a little too rigid at the moment, and we have switched it back to the old format as the default. Please do keep giving it a try though - you can get there by clicking "add a sample translation". Let me know of any extra features that would make it more usable for you and I will try to get them added!
Thanks!
Ben
Yes, this will be used for testing from samples - the structure is a little too rigid at the moment, and we have switched it back to the old format as the default. Please do keep giving it a try though - you can get there by clicking "add a sample translation". Let me know of any extra features that would make it more usable for you and I will try to get them added!
Thanks!
Ben
Giton 1 week, 2 days ago
Yep, no furigana please. Mouse-over as on Rikai or Popjisyo may be the perfect option, but can the code be implemented? Otherwise a plain but separate Kana transcript may be best.
Yep, no furigana please. Mouse-over as on Rikai or Popjisyo may be the perfect option, but can the code be implemented? Otherwise a plain but separate Kana transcript may be best.
Giton 1 week, 1 day ago
Back to new features:
It would be a great improvement in the Kanji section to include sample words, i.e. the most frequently used words using KUN and ON-yomi. I saw that this has been done for some entries already, but more with random words. Having like 4-6 examples of how the Kanji is used and read helps memorizing it. Also, could the Kanji font be increased in the test section. Currently the Kanji are tiny (particular in the multiple choice tests) and similarly looking Kanji are hard to make out (at least on my 15").
Also how about editing mnemonics? Is this possible already?
Back to new features:
It would be a great improvement in the Kanji section to include sample words, i.e. the most frequently used words using KUN and ON-yomi. I saw that this has been done for some entries already, but more with random words. Having like 4-6 examples of how the Kanji is used and read helps memorizing it. Also, could the Kanji font be increased in the test section. Currently the Kanji are tiny (particular in the multiple choice tests) and similarly looking Kanji are hard to make out (at least on my 15").
Also how about editing mnemonics? Is this possible already?
My understanding merely from my own studies here on Memrise is that the する is left out and vs is written in the POS field. However I couldn't find anything in our conventions mentioning it.
I recently changed しんぱい・する and せいかつ・する to しんぱい and せいかつ respectfully. I also added their kanji, 心配 and 生活 (again respectfully) and added the parts of speech for both.
However I was unsure of how to deal with the fact both are nouns and verbs. So in the kana-alternatives I added the previous しんぱいする and せいかつする as alternatives without the ・ - thinking back on this people who test on these who have become accustomed to typing the ・ may include it and be getting it wrong. Without seeing the discussion I left about the changes may become confused.
I think I did the right thing with these two but I'm unsure. Do I remove the する versions from the alternatives altogether and leave a discussion as to why (our conventions)? Should I make a more visible note (via mem) to explain it?
I didn't want to misuse the mem area to leave a note to learners about the changes - as I do believe this was in the JLPT4 course.
For future reference - did I do the right thing?
I recently changed しんぱい・する and せいかつ・する to しんぱい and せいかつ respectfully. I also added their kanji, 心配 and 生活 (again respectfully) and added the parts of speech for both.
However I was unsure of how to deal with the fact both are nouns and verbs. So in the kana-alternatives I added the previous しんぱいする and せいかつする as alternatives without the ・ - thinking back on this people who test on these who have become accustomed to typing the ・ may include it and be getting it wrong. Without seeing the discussion I left about the changes may become confused.
I think I did the right thing with these two but I'm unsure. Do I remove the する versions from the alternatives altogether and leave a discussion as to why (our conventions)? Should I make a more visible note (via mem) to explain it?
I didn't want to misuse the mem area to leave a note to learners about the changes - as I do believe this was in the JLPT4 course.
For future reference - did I do the right thing?
2 comments
Latest 1 week, 2 days ago
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 2 days ago
Yeah, you did the right thing. We have been deleting the する off a lot of the words. The problem is that the N2 deck is the one getting actively moderated and so that deck will be most in line with conventions (although it is far from complete).
Usually what happens is that these words get merged with the master dictionary. When that happens the main definition becomes the one without する and the one with する gets put down as an alternative. That way if someone types it with する they will still get it right, but they won't 'learn' it that way, if that makes sense.
Since nobody will ever know when things get merged because moderators only get a random selection of words to work with, your best bet is to copy the definition with する and put in the kana alternatives and then edit the main definition to not include it.
By deleting the する from the main definition, you are also helping us moderators merge it with the main dictionary and then you get all the goodies that come with that (mems, pos, alternative meanings...)
Also be sure to edit the English definition to match. For example, recently I changed 'to enter the hospital' to 'hospitalization' for 入院・にゅういん. That way it matches its part of speech (which is usually a noun for these).
Yeah, you did the right thing. We have been deleting the する off a lot of the words. The problem is that the N2 deck is the one getting actively moderated and so that deck will be most in line with conventions (although it is far from complete).
Usually what happens is that these words get merged with the master dictionary. When that happens the main definition becomes the one without する and the one with する gets put down as an alternative. That way if someone types it with する they will still get it right, but they won't 'learn' it that way, if that makes sense.
Since nobody will ever know when things get merged because moderators only get a random selection of words to work with, your best bet is to copy the definition with する and put in the kana alternatives and then edit the main definition to not include it.
By deleting the する from the main definition, you are also helping us moderators merge it with the main dictionary and then you get all the goodies that come with that (mems, pos, alternative meanings...)
Also be sure to edit the English definition to match. For example, recently I changed 'to enter the hospital' to 'hospitalization' for 入院・にゅういん. That way it matches its part of speech (which is usually a noun for these).
Tchael 1 week, 2 days ago
I changed the English definition of both and also added two alternatives for 心配. I just wanted to make sure I was doing this properly.
Glad to know I am so I can moderate the rest of the words I come across.
Thanks for the confirmation. :) Cheers!
I changed the English definition of both and also added two alternatives for 心配. I just wanted to make sure I was doing this properly.
Glad to know I am so I can moderate the rest of the words I come across.
Thanks for the confirmation. :) Cheers!
I just started learning japanese, and the only "class" I could find was a level 2 or 3. I wanted to know if there are any lower levels and how to write the answers in japanese when those kinds of questions appear.
Thank You!!
-CasRimi
Thank You!!
-CasRimi
9 comments
Latest 1 week, 2 days ago
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 3 days ago
Are you talking about an N1 course for kanji?
The JLPT levels actually start with N5 as the easiest and then go up to N1 as the most difficult. Are you looking to do a kanji course or a kana course?
Are you talking about an N1 course for kanji?
The JLPT levels actually start with N5 as the easiest and then go up to N1 as the most difficult. Are you looking to do a kanji course or a kana course?
Tchael 1 week, 3 days ago
Google "Microsoft IME Japanese" or "Google IME Japanese". You will very likely need to use an IME input. We have an article somewhere on Memrise but I don't have it handy (not on my home computer at this moment)
If you go to my profile you should find JLPT5 and if you are comfortable with reading the kana it's a good place to start.
頑張って！
Google "Microsoft IME Japanese" or "Google IME Japanese". You will very likely need to use an IME input. We have an article somewhere on Memrise but I don't have it handy (not on my home computer at this moment)
If you go to my profile you should find JLPT5 and if you are comfortable with reading the kana it's a good place to start.
頑張って！
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 3 days ago
Here's that article:
http://blog.memrise.com/201...
It also links to another article that walks through Microsoft IME, but Google is a lot better in my opinion.
Here's that article:
http://blog.memrise.com/201...
It also links to another article that walks through Microsoft IME, but Google is a lot better in my opinion.
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 3 days ago
I got Google IME too. Can second the recommendation. Blows Microsoft IME out of the water in many ways.
I got Google IME too. Can second the recommendation. Blows Microsoft IME out of the water in many ways.
Tchael 1 week, 3 days ago
I've yet to learn the slightly difference other than Google IME "learns" better.
But I sure do enjoy that Google IME has 顔文字 built in. :P
(*ﾟ∀ﾟ)
I've yet to learn the slightly difference other than Google IME "learns" better.
But I sure do enjoy that Google IME has 顔文字 built in. :P
(*ﾟ∀ﾟ)
CasRimi 1 week, 2 days ago
So the easier classes are the largest number and the hardest is the lowest number?
And if someone could explain the difference between kana and kanji? I thought kana was letters like "A,B,C,D, etc.." And I thought kanji were those lines and squiggles (for lack of better term at the moment -_-')
So the easier classes are the largest number and the hardest is the lowest number?
And if someone could explain the difference between kana and kanji? I thought kana was letters like "A,B,C,D, etc.." And I thought kanji were those lines and squiggles (for lack of better term at the moment -_-')
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 2 days ago
kana originates from kanji actually, but it is a lot more curvy and just represents sounds. Some common hiragana:
あ え お う い か け こ く き
Katakana represents foreign words and some plants and animals. It has hard edges:
ア エ オ ウ イ カ ケ コ ク キ
It can also be used to 'shout' in Japanese like we use ALL CAPS in English.
Kanji represent meanings and usually have more than one sound:
一 二 食 飲 来 行
kana originates from kanji actually, but it is a lot more curvy and just represents sounds. Some common hiragana:
あ え お う い か け こ く き
Katakana represents foreign words and some plants and animals. It has hard edges:
ア エ オ ウ イ カ ケ コ ク キ
It can also be used to 'shout' in Japanese like we use ALL CAPS in English.
Kanji represent meanings and usually have more than one sound:
一 二 食 飲 来 行
CasRimi 1 week, 2 days ago
So I set up the microsoft one first because my computer hid the google download from me, how can I tell when I'm typing?
@jlpbootcamp, I read the website you linked and I understand the writing in romanji(?) part, but what if I don't know what that is?
So I set up the microsoft one first because my computer hid the google download from me, how can I tell when I'm typing?
@jlpbootcamp, I read the website you linked and I understand the writing in romanji(?) part, but what if I don't know what that is?
Tchael 1 week, 2 days ago
I think the default switch is left alt+left shift (might also be left ctrl).
You should have a "language" bar on your bottom right of your task bar. It should read JP when typing in Japanese (specifically also showing あ when typing in Hiragana) or EN when typing in English.
I think the default switch is left alt+left shift (might also be left ctrl).
You should have a "language" bar on your bottom right of your task bar. It should read JP when typing in Japanese (specifically also showing あ when typing in Hiragana) or EN when typing in English.
Due to the nature of Input Methods such as the Japanese IME, you have to hit Enter twice to confirm the line.
While typing tests, this can sometimes lead to skipping the following word.
Would it be possible to disable that skip by delaying the "next" button (or was it "continue"?) by 2-3 seconds? If it was just grayed out for a little time, this couldn't happen.
For other languages, this might probably not be an issue, but such a short delay wouldn't hurt anyone really.
Bet it's also useful for other IMEs.
While typing tests, this can sometimes lead to skipping the following word.
Would it be possible to disable that skip by delaying the "next" button (or was it "continue"?) by 2-3 seconds? If it was just grayed out for a little time, this couldn't happen.
For other languages, this might probably not be an issue, but such a short delay wouldn't hurt anyone really.
Bet it's also useful for other IMEs.
1 comment
Latest 1 week, 3 days ago
usako 1 week, 3 days ago
I don't think, that skipping the word by this is such a big deal. You can practice it next time:) If you would add 3 seconds' delay, sooner or later it could become really annoying. As for me, I find it a huge advantage, that I can go to the next question as soon as I answered the previous one. If you have 200 words to revise, 3 seconds sum up into 10 minutes, so it really would be waste of time, i think.
I don't think, that skipping the word by this is such a big deal. You can practice it next time:) If you would add 3 seconds' delay, sooner or later it could become really annoying. As for me, I find it a huge advantage, that I can go to the next question as soon as I answered the previous one. If you have 200 words to revise, 3 seconds sum up into 10 minutes, so it really would be waste of time, i think.
Everybody knows that the memrise-team works on a way to learn also with sentences. Especially in Japanese we have a big problem, since there are so many different forms depending on register. If we have to fill a blank, how do we know wich form? That's the reason why I open this entry.
First of all I want to share my own ideas. However, I want you to comment on possibility of including this ideas to memrise and effectivness for learning and also come up with own ideas.
To the problem with the register: it's possible to make instruction in which register and tense the word/ verb has to be.
It's also possible to work with drop down. But this requires work for us as Japanese community, since we have to fill in the possibilities so there are not two possible answers.
Here some other ideas than the fill in the blank method:
One nice way to learn sentences is to have the pieces of the sentence and sort them, so they build the sentence correctly. This trains an understanding for the word order.
Very important in Japanese is to learn using particles. So it would be a nice idea to have the fill in the blank method for particles only. That would make a lot of work for the memrise team, but it would be worth it.
What do you think? Are this good ideas? Are they possible? Would you improve some ideas or make new ones? Would you help to achieve this ideas?
Hope to hear from you soon^^
kind regards
Kyokochan93
First of all I want to share my own ideas. However, I want you to comment on possibility of including this ideas to memrise and effectivness for learning and also come up with own ideas.
To the problem with the register: it's possible to make instruction in which register and tense the word/ verb has to be.
It's also possible to work with drop down. But this requires work for us as Japanese community, since we have to fill in the possibilities so there are not two possible answers.
Here some other ideas than the fill in the blank method:
One nice way to learn sentences is to have the pieces of the sentence and sort them, so they build the sentence correctly. This trains an understanding for the word order.
Very important in Japanese is to learn using particles. So it would be a nice idea to have the fill in the blank method for particles only. That would make a lot of work for the memrise team, but it would be worth it.
What do you think? Are this good ideas? Are they possible? Would you improve some ideas or make new ones? Would you help to achieve this ideas?
Hope to hear from you soon^^
kind regards
Kyokochan93
16 comments
Latest 1 week, 5 days ago
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks ago
What would that look like?
Fill in the gap. Use "non-past, negative, plain form"
sleep (v5r; vi; arch)
子供達が_____うちは、テレビをついちゃダメだ！
Don't you switch on the TV until the kids are asleep!
This would make it necessary to instruct people. What's "non-past", what's negative, what's plain?
Some textbooks teach the non-past as "present tense", even if that's not entirely correct. The "plain" forms are wrongly assumed to be "non-polite" (because only the sentence ending determines the register of speech), and so on.
I have no idea what such an instruction needs to look like to make it effective.
What would that look like?
Fill in the gap. Use "non-past, negative, plain form"
sleep (v5r; vi; arch)
子供達が_____うちは、テレビをついちゃダメだ！
Don't you switch on the TV until the kids are asleep!
This would make it necessary to instruct people. What's "non-past", what's negative, what's plain?
Some textbooks teach the non-past as "present tense", even if that's not entirely correct. The "plain" forms are wrongly assumed to be "non-polite" (because only the sentence ending determines the register of speech), and so on.
I have no idea what such an instruction needs to look like to make it effective.
benwhately 2 weeks ago
This is very interesting. It is a very complex issue, as all the sentence testing is. So we are going to need to try things out and see what works and develop towards something more complex in the future.
So what would the most simple version of this look like? What are the limitations that we could put in place that would let us test *something* usefully?
I don't think that you should worry too much about the instruction side of it: if it is possible to test it effectively then we can instruct on it as well. It could simply be used as a testing device for people who are learning other stuff outside of Memrise (which is essential for them anyway). So aside from the teaching, would that testing work?
Very good discussion to be having, and I look forward to what we find out!
Best wishes
Ben
This is very interesting. It is a very complex issue, as all the sentence testing is. So we are going to need to try things out and see what works and develop towards something more complex in the future.
So what would the most simple version of this look like? What are the limitations that we could put in place that would let us test *something* usefully?
I don't think that you should worry too much about the instruction side of it: if it is possible to test it effectively then we can instruct on it as well. It could simply be used as a testing device for people who are learning other stuff outside of Memrise (which is essential for them anyway). So aside from the teaching, would that testing work?
Very good discussion to be having, and I look forward to what we find out!
Best wishes
Ben
Yen 2 weeks ago
In my opinion, I would think it's better to leave out the extra grammatical information entirely, especially if you're given an English equivalent for the sentence.
The trick with learning a language is to get a sense for grammar and tense. If the sentence is answered incorrectly, maybe then it could show extra information on grammar, with a discussion/mem on how to remember what tense or conjugation to use.
In my opinion, I would think it's better to leave out the extra grammatical information entirely, especially if you're given an English equivalent for the sentence.
The trick with learning a language is to get a sense for grammar and tense. If the sentence is answered incorrectly, maybe then it could show extra information on grammar, with a discussion/mem on how to remember what tense or conjugation to use.
ikenaiAndi 2 weeks ago
There are several ways to approach this. The most simple version would be "enter the word in question, in its dictionary form".
You would not really fill in the blank, but you would input the word that's been asked for.
It doesn't really matter, because the sentences are not there to teach grammar, they're there to show / indicate in which context a word is being used.
After someone put in the correct word in its dictionary form, you could show the complete example sentence, for comparision.
So 行く may have become 残念ながら、今日義理の母に遊びに行かないと - that's perfectly fine, because the user will have to use other material to study grammar anyways. However, the user will also see their input in a sentence, in the correct grammatical way. You could call that immersion or comprehensible input or however.
While we're at it, maybe Furigana would be helpful. Not everyone can read every Kanji, and the translated sentence is not helpful at all, because word order doesn't match, neither in English, nor in German, and natural Japanese omits whatever can be assumed "known" by the other party.
If you're eating with your friend and you want to ask "will you eat that steak over there, too?", it may very well become "eat?" in Japanese, and nothing more. See where I'm coming from?
Being able to read every word is immensely helpful here, thus, Furigana would be great when using example sentences.
Sparing the user the need to fill in the correct grammatical form also saves a ton of time. memrise is a vocab acquisition tool, not a one-stop-shop to (insert target language here).
My 2c
There are several ways to approach this. The most simple version would be "enter the word in question, in its dictionary form".
You would not really fill in the blank, but you would input the word that's been asked for.
It doesn't really matter, because the sentences are not there to teach grammar, they're there to show / indicate in which context a word is being used.
After someone put in the correct word in its dictionary form, you could show the complete example sentence, for comparision.
So 行く may have become 残念ながら、今日義理の母に遊びに行かないと - that's perfectly fine, because the user will have to use other material to study grammar anyways. However, the user will also see their input in a sentence, in the correct grammatical way. You could call that immersion or comprehensible input or however.
While we're at it, maybe Furigana would be helpful. Not everyone can read every Kanji, and the translated sentence is not helpful at all, because word order doesn't match, neither in English, nor in German, and natural Japanese omits whatever can be assumed "known" by the other party.
If you're eating with your friend and you want to ask "will you eat that steak over there, too?", it may very well become "eat?" in Japanese, and nothing more. See where I'm coming from?
Being able to read every word is immensely helpful here, thus, Furigana would be great when using example sentences.
Sparing the user the need to fill in the correct grammatical form also saves a ton of time. memrise is a vocab acquisition tool, not a one-stop-shop to (insert target language here).
My 2c
benwhately 1 week, 6 days ago
@ikenaiAndi, if you think that that would work, then it would definitely be the simplest way to implement it, and would perform the function that it is supposed to perform of being a contextualised vocab test, rather than a grammar test. You would then have the audio recording of the whole sentence played, with the right grammatical form of the word, so that you got used to hearing it.
My worry is that people will *see it* as a grammar test anyway, because that is what they are used to using fill-in-the-blank tests for. But I guess we can get around that if we present it right.
Do other people think that that would work?
@ikenaiAndi, if you think that that would work, then it would definitely be the simplest way to implement it, and would perform the function that it is supposed to perform of being a contextualised vocab test, rather than a grammar test. You would then have the audio recording of the whole sentence played, with the right grammatical form of the word, so that you got used to hearing it.
My worry is that people will *see it* as a grammar test anyway, because that is what they are used to using fill-in-the-blank tests for. But I guess we can get around that if we present it right.
Do other people think that that would work?
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 6 days ago
It would be relatively easy to implement this and I think a lot of
JLPT-ers would love it because it is essentially just a harder version of the test :) There would be some ambiguity though, some sentences might be able to take a couple of different words.
So @ikenaiAndi are you saying users would decide which conjugation to use, or would it simply be a glorified version of what we have now, but instead of an English prompt there is a sentence with a blank in it?
It would be relatively easy to implement this and I think a lot of
JLPT-ers would love it because it is essentially just a harder version of the test :) There would be some ambiguity though, some sentences might be able to take a couple of different words.
So @ikenaiAndi are you saying users would decide which conjugation to use, or would it simply be a glorified version of what we have now, but instead of an English prompt there is a sentence with a blank in it?
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 6 days ago
It would look like this:
Please enter the dictionary form of:
drink (v5m; vt)
昨日、__過ぎて頭がガンガンしてる
My head's beating like a drum because I drank too much yesterday,
____
You'd then enter 飲む and, if you got it right, you'd see
昨日、飲み過ぎて頭がガンガンしてる
Maybe with the 飲み highlighted in some way.
Just make sure people know it is the dictionary form they have to enter. Even if they get it wrong once, they'll get the hang of it quickly.
It would look like this:
Please enter the dictionary form of:
drink (v5m; vt)
昨日、__過ぎて頭がガンガンしてる
My head's beating like a drum because I drank too much yesterday,
____
You'd then enter 飲む and, if you got it right, you'd see
昨日、飲み過ぎて頭がガンガンしてる
Maybe with the 飲み highlighted in some way.
Just make sure people know it is the dictionary form they have to enter. Even if they get it wrong once, they'll get the hang of it quickly.
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 6 days ago
First off, great example sentence, I'll have to store that away for later use.
Second, I would think it would be a bit confusing to do it that way. Wouldn't it be more useful to type in the verb stem (in this situation)? Sorry, maybe I'm missing the point.
I think it would be more useful to have the prompt be what you just put in, but you have to type in 飲み in order to be counted correct.
First off, great example sentence, I'll have to store that away for later use.
Second, I would think it would be a bit confusing to do it that way. Wouldn't it be more useful to type in the verb stem (in this situation)? Sorry, maybe I'm missing the point.
I think it would be more useful to have the prompt be what you just put in, but you have to type in 飲み in order to be counted correct.
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 6 days ago
In this specific case, there's only 飲み as a possible answer, but whenever you test a verb at the end of a sentence, you'd have to accept a lot of possible answers.
Japanese can (and does) conjugate other kinds of words as well, so you'd have to always accept a whole bunch of possible input, rendering it useless for users not that advanced, or unfamiliar with certain grammatical aspects - or even with some cultural background.
You could also just accept the word root, 飲, but then you could put all kind of nonsense, completely eliminating the sense of it.
I think that, as mentioned above, the good old vocab test, only with the sentence as a way to have context available and as a hint on where to put and how to use a word would be clean, easy and fast to implement.
Just make sure the user doesn't confuse it with the classical "cloze deletion" test. Would be a PITA to implement that for hundreds of thousands of vocab items as well.
In this specific case, there's only 飲み as a possible answer, but whenever you test a verb at the end of a sentence, you'd have to accept a lot of possible answers.
Japanese can (and does) conjugate other kinds of words as well, so you'd have to always accept a whole bunch of possible input, rendering it useless for users not that advanced, or unfamiliar with certain grammatical aspects - or even with some cultural background.
You could also just accept the word root, 飲, but then you could put all kind of nonsense, completely eliminating the sense of it.
I think that, as mentioned above, the good old vocab test, only with the sentence as a way to have context available and as a hint on where to put and how to use a word would be clean, easy and fast to implement.
Just make sure the user doesn't confuse it with the classical "cloze deletion" test. Would be a PITA to implement that for hundreds of thousands of vocab items as well.
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 6 days ago
For above example sentence, you have to know that "to do too much" would be "masu-stem + sugiru", which is not exactly a newbie grammar point.. that's the problem here.
For above example sentence, you have to know that "to do too much" would be "masu-stem + sugiru", which is not exactly a newbie grammar point.. that's the problem here.
jlptbootcamp 1 week, 6 days ago
Okay, so in a way the sentence would act as just one more part of the prompt. Keep what we got now, but the sentence would add just another hint to help you understand the context in which it were used.
So, probably a better sentence to use would be something like ビールを＿＿＿のが大好きです。because it is simpler and so would probably be understandable to someone studying 飲む, yeah?
I thought the point was more like a grammar-ish test where you had to put in the proper conjugation to match the ~過ぎる. Sorry about the misunderstanding. I see it now.
Now, the question is, who writes the example sentences? They would have to meet the comprehensible input criteria (not too difficult, not too easy, just right)
Would there be only one per word? or several that get cycled through?
Okay, so in a way the sentence would act as just one more part of the prompt. Keep what we got now, but the sentence would add just another hint to help you understand the context in which it were used.
So, probably a better sentence to use would be something like ビールを＿＿＿のが大好きです。because it is simpler and so would probably be understandable to someone studying 飲む, yeah?
I thought the point was more like a grammar-ish test where you had to put in the proper conjugation to match the ~過ぎる. Sorry about the misunderstanding. I see it now.
Now, the question is, who writes the example sentences? They would have to meet the comprehensible input criteria (not too difficult, not too easy, just right)
Would there be only one per word? or several that get cycled through?
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 6 days ago
I don't know where the crew is gonna get their example sentences from. Would be cool though if we could add our own ones, too, which would then pop up at some visible spot in the moderation area, along with a notification for the mods to check (and probably correct) it.
A grammar test would be something pretty neat, but not instead of the vocab test, but as an additional feature.
It's not always easy to build natural sentences with the dictionary form of words. ビールを飲むのが好きだ is perfectly fit for this, but it's not always that easy.
Also, for this sentence, you need to know that the particle の acts as a nominalizer for subordinate clauses (in this case "to drink beer").
I don't know where the crew is gonna get their example sentences from. Would be cool though if we could add our own ones, too, which would then pop up at some visible spot in the moderation area, along with a notification for the mods to check (and probably correct) it.
A grammar test would be something pretty neat, but not instead of the vocab test, but as an additional feature.
It's not always easy to build natural sentences with the dictionary form of words. ビールを飲むのが好きだ is perfectly fit for this, but it's not always that easy.
Also, for this sentence, you need to know that the particle の acts as a nominalizer for subordinate clauses (in this case "to drink beer").
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 6 days ago
Btw, yeah, a bunch of sentences per word would also be cool, because it would add variation, exposure to the language and you wouldn't learn sentences by heart (which would defeat the purpose).
Btw, yeah, a bunch of sentences per word would also be cool, because it would add variation, exposure to the language and you wouldn't learn sentences by heart (which would defeat the purpose).
ikenaiAndi 1 week, 6 days ago
I would like to add some thoughts to this, to make sure we won't confuse stuff when talking about this.
I'll talk a bit of what you need to learn a language - what learning a language consists of. I will also talk about what's possible within the limits of memrise, and what's out of reach.
It's gonna be a wall of text.
I came here to learn vocabulary.
Acquiring (a huge amount of) words is the most difficult thing to do when learning a language. It costs a lot of time and no textbook or even teacher or tutor can really help you with this.
A teacher / tutor might be great to disambiguate or clarify, or show you how to use a certain word correctly.
This is not always necessary.. not even Japanese, with its pretty alien concepts to transport meanings. It is not _that_ detached from how we think here in western cultures.
Once you got the grammatical patterns down, you will be able to decode strings of words (given you can parse and understand those when you encounter them in a stream of sound sequences, which are different skill sets, those can NOT be taught via flash cards at all).
- You have to first learn those concepts,
- then get used to them,
- then train them,
and here, too, input and output are two different things. It's perfectly possible to speak fluently, but understand only 10% of what's been said due to poor listening comprehension.
You can learn words via flash cards. It's just a plain, rote memorizing thing to do, not too funky and exciting. Fluff around this, like leader boards, achievements, points and what have you are nice, but ultimately only distract from the fact that what you do is kind of a primitive, yet effective way to memorize. Don't get me wrong, I like it. That's why I'm here.
You can do various things with example sentences. They're first and foremost exposure to your target language. Even if you don't understand them, they will show you patterns, and the more you get to see a certain grammar point in action, the more it will occur to you that this could be the way to express a specific thing.
I already gave an example above, with 飲み過ぎて. Next you see 食べ過ぎて太った (I gained weight because I ate too much), 勉強し過ぎて頭が爆発 (I learned too much, my head's exploding), やり過ぎて疲れた (I'm exhausted due to doing too much) and so on. Well, I probably didn't have to explain that (masu-stem of verb + sugiru = do X too much), because you now saw it a couple of time.
There are other examples for this. The amount of things you can do with the て form of nouns, adjectives and verbs alone is a great deal to learn. Once you can form the て form, you can also form the た form immediately - in theory. In reality, you have to train that as well, in comprehension as well as in production, separately. We're not talking about "how to cook curry rice" here, but about a complex thing that takes years to complete.
Now, teaching grammar is THE thing you go to a classroom for, or get a tutor, or ask your native friends (although latter can become quite daunting for them after a while, as a native is not used to analyze their own mother tongue grammatically - especially true for English speakers btw). Sure, you can pick up grammar along the way and try to figure it out. Or you encounter some structure, and when you managed to separate it from the rest of the sentence, you look it up. After that, you'll scan through more input to find it in use again, then try to make sense of it. Then you might wanna try it out yourself.
All this is NOT possible via flash cards.
Flash cards can TEST you on grammar, IF memrise is capable to ask precisely AND takes certain variations into account. Flash cards can not TEACH grammar.
Immersion alone (as described above), or, better, specific instructions (teacher, textbook) do the trick.
And here comes the bummer:
You will approximately spend 10 times as long on learning words. There is a finite amount of grammar rules, and only a certain number is in actual use, and even less in spoken conversation. However, every person's individual vocabulary differs. You will come across over 100.000 words in your mother tongue over the course of your life.
That's why I strongly suggest to keep it real, add example sentences to illustrate, not to teach or, worse, test.
Now, to finish this, a last thought.
It's already bad enough as is, because you sometimes don't know what it is you have to enter. 学ぶ、習う、勉強する、学習? There we have the "part of speech" part in place, but even that doesn't always help.
Now imagine you have a sentence where you can put more than one option. Now add to this 10 different correct versions of the same word, and you will have 50 different correct versions for each sentence. Now take a look at the 90k vocab database in the "Japanese" topic that has to be taken care of so it shrinks to a more realistic 30-40k. You'll still end up with 150k "correct versions" for input.
Then take into account the time someone is sitting there, pondering what to fill in.
No thanks.
As I already wrote at the start of this posting, I am here to learn vocab.
If I want machine parts, I don't search for it in a coffee shop, just because it's a "shop"
I would like to add some thoughts to this, to make sure we won't confuse stuff when talking about this.
I'll talk a bit of what you need to learn a language - what learning a language consists of. I will also talk about what's possible within the limits of memrise, and what's out of reach.
It's gonna be a wall of text.
I came here to learn vocabulary.
Acquiring (a huge amount of) words is the most difficult thing to do when learning a language. It costs a lot of time and no textbook or even teacher or tutor can really help you with this.
A teacher / tutor might be great to disambiguate or clarify, or show you how to use a certain word correctly.
This is not always necessary.. not even Japanese, with its pretty alien concepts to transport meanings. It is not _that_ detached from how we think here in western cultures.
Once you got the grammatical patterns down, you will be able to decode strings of words (given you can parse and understand those when you encounter them in a stream of sound sequences, which are different skill sets, those can NOT be taught via flash cards at all).
- You have to first learn those concepts,
- then get used to them,
- then train them,
and here, too, input and output are two different things. It's perfectly possible to speak fluently, but understand only 10% of what's been said due to poor listening comprehension.
You can learn words via flash cards. It's just a plain, rote memorizing thing to do, not too funky and exciting. Fluff around this, like leader boards, achievements, points and what have you are nice, but ultimately only distract from the fact that what you do is kind of a primitive, yet effective way to memorize. Don't get me wrong, I like it. That's why I'm here.
You can do various things with example sentences. They're first and foremost exposure to your target language. Even if you don't understand them, they will show you patterns, and the more you get to see a certain grammar point in action, the more it will occur to you that this could be the way to express a specific thing.
I already gave an example above, with 飲み過ぎて. Next you see 食べ過ぎて太った (I gained weight because I ate too much), 勉強し過ぎて頭が爆発 (I learned too much, my head's exploding), やり過ぎて疲れた (I'm exhausted due to doing too much) and so on. Well, I probably didn't have to explain that (masu-stem of verb + sugiru = do X too much), because you now saw it a couple of time.
There are other examples for this. The amount of things you can do with the て form of nouns, adjectives and verbs alone is a great deal to learn. Once you can form the て form, you can also form the た form immediately - in theory. In reality, you have to train that as well, in comprehension as well as in production, separately. We're not talking about "how to cook curry rice" here, but about a complex thing that takes years to complete.
Now, teaching grammar is THE thing you go to a classroom for, or get a tutor, or ask your native friends (although latter can become quite daunting for them after a while, as a native is not used to analyze their own mother tongue grammatically - especially true for English speakers btw). Sure, you can pick up grammar along the way and try to figure it out. Or you encounter some structure, and when you managed to separate it from the rest of the sentence, you look it up. After that, you'll scan through more input to find it in use again, then try to make sense of it. Then you might wanna try it out yourself.
All this is NOT possible via flash cards.
Flash cards can TEST you on grammar, IF memrise is capable to ask precisely AND takes certain variations into account. Flash cards can not TEACH grammar.
Immersion alone (as described above), or, better, specific instructions (teacher, textbook) do the trick.
And here comes the bummer:
You will approximately spend 10 times as long on learning words. There is a finite amount of grammar rules, and only a certain number is in actual use, and even less in spoken conversation. However, every person's individual vocabulary differs. You will come across over 100.000 words in your mother tongue over the course of your life.
That's why I strongly suggest to keep it real, add example sentences to illustrate, not to teach or, worse, test.
Now, to finish this, a last thought.
It's already bad enough as is, because you sometimes don't know what it is you have to enter. 学ぶ、習う、勉強する、学習? There we have the "part of speech" part in place, but even that doesn't always help.
Now imagine you have a sentence where you can put more than one option. Now add to this 10 different correct versions of the same word, and you will have 50 different correct versions for each sentence. Now take a look at the 90k vocab database in the "Japanese" topic that has to be taken care of so it shrinks to a more realistic 30-40k. You'll still end up with 150k "correct versions" for input.
Then take into account the time someone is sitting there, pondering what to fill in.
No thanks.
As I already wrote at the start of this posting, I am here to learn vocab.
If I want machine parts, I don't search for it in a coffee shop, just because it's a "shop"
benwhately 1 week, 6 days ago
Great discussion. I think that I am pretty much in agreement with ikenaiAndi with regards of the scope and aims of Memrise: it is to make the massive fact learning part of learning a language much easier. Part of doing that is to give you a better sense of how to use a word in the target language. We are not going to teach grammar, or test it. It is, as you have noted, a massive task and not one that we are best placed to do. We will devote our time to the areas that we can really make a difference.
The sample sentences will be generated by users, and then checked and corrected by other users. This is going to take some work to get the dynamic right, but as long as it is constrained in the format, I think that this will be possible. There will be (eventually) multiple per word (writing sample sentences and having someone correct them for you is a good form of learning as well, so this can be a part of the learning process).
We will also enable rating by difficulty, so that eventually people can get shown sentences that should be at the right difficulty level.
It is a big project, and will take some work to get it right. But it does feel possible I think, and if we get it right it will be an important addition to the *vocabulary* learning tools that we are building.
Thanks
Ben
Great discussion. I think that I am pretty much in agreement with ikenaiAndi with regards of the scope and aims of Memrise: it is to make the massive fact learning part of learning a language much easier. Part of doing that is to give you a better sense of how to use a word in the target language. We are not going to teach grammar, or test it. It is, as you have noted, a massive task and not one that we are best placed to do. We will devote our time to the areas that we can really make a difference.
The sample sentences will be generated by users, and then checked and corrected by other users. This is going to take some work to get the dynamic right, but as long as it is constrained in the format, I think that this will be possible. There will be (eventually) multiple per word (writing sample sentences and having someone correct them for you is a good form of learning as well, so this can be a part of the learning process).
We will also enable rating by difficulty, so that eventually people can get shown sentences that should be at the right difficulty level.
It is a big project, and will take some work to get it right. But it does feel possible I think, and if we get it right it will be an important addition to the *vocabulary* learning tools that we are building.
Thanks
Ben
With the current implementation of Japanese testing, I'm not really learning how to write kanji. At best, I'm just recognizing how to read them, and pick them out of an IME.
Personally, I learn a bit better by actually writing out kanji by hand. But, with the pause button broken-ish, and no automatic testing, it's kind of difficult to do that with memrise.
Does anyone have any thoughts/hints/tips on practicing writing kanji? any ideas on how memrise might be extended to include actual writing in the tests?
Personally, I learn a bit better by actually writing out kanji by hand. But, with the pause button broken-ish, and no automatic testing, it's kind of difficult to do that with memrise.
Does anyone have any thoughts/hints/tips on practicing writing kanji? any ideas on how memrise might be extended to include actual writing in the tests?
1 comment
Latest 1 week, 6 days ago
Tchael 1 week, 6 days ago
Two options - and it greatly depends on your level. Although neither are ideas to extend Memrise to include actual writing.
1) If you have a graphics tablet use the IME Pad to draw out the kanji when answering.
2) Check your garden for the words you are studying. Use a dictionary to bring up the kanji and stroke order if needed. Write it out by hand by searching it on the dictionary as the reference point.
Two options - and it greatly depends on your level. Although neither are ideas to extend Memrise to include actual writing.
1) If you have a graphics tablet use the IME Pad to draw out the kanji when answering.
2) Check your garden for the words you are studying. Use a dictionary to bring up the kanji and stroke order if needed. Write it out by hand by searching it on the dictionary as the reference point.
6 comments
Latest 2 weeks, 1 day ago
Toebenator 2 weeks, 3 days ago
I think Zombies Will be better than aything there ever was in Call of Duty.
I think Zombies Will be better than aything there ever was in Call of Duty.
Toebenator 2 weeks, 3 days ago
no way. zombies is the best thing that has ever happened to cod. Besides Multiplayer
no way. zombies is the best thing that has ever happened to cod. Besides Multiplayer
Is there a list that translates certain kanji to just basic form, like a-i-u-e-o ka-ki-ku-ke-ko etc. to Kanji form, or do most kanji have different (sounds) meanings?
3 comments
Latest 2 weeks, 1 day ago
LauraM 2 weeks, 5 days ago
That sounds like the Japanese-kanji topic, except in the kanji topic it teaches you an English equivalent meaning for each kanji first, and then the readings. There might be a course that skips the English meanings and goes right to readings, but I haven't looked that closely.
That sounds like the Japanese-kanji topic, except in the kanji topic it teaches you an English equivalent meaning for each kanji first, and then the readings. There might be a course that skips the English meanings and goes right to readings, but I haven't looked that closely.
benwhately 2 weeks, 5 days ago
There is a topic called "Japanese Kanji Readings" that does this - if you go to the "topics" page and then click on "Japanese" you should see it there as one of the options.
I hope that helps!
best wishes
Ben
There is a topic called "Japanese Kanji Readings" that does this - if you go to the "topics" page and then click on "Japanese" you should see it there as one of the options.
I hope that helps!
best wishes
Ben
It's quite frustrating having to remember whether to use to or not, usually it's okay to just use the word as in "know" but for sometimes it is "to have" and just putting "have" will count as an error.
I'm also getting some things wrong because I'm using British spelling as in colour - it would be nice to have both UK and US spelling acceptable.
I'm also getting some things wrong because I'm using British spelling as in colour - it would be nice to have both UK and US spelling acceptable.
27 comments
Latest 2 weeks, 5 days ago
Mike01 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I also find this frustrating. The same problem exists with nouns, where some begin with 'a ' and some don't.Making them consistent would suffice, but ideally it would support answers both with and without the prefixed "a " and "to "
I also find this frustrating. The same problem exists with nouns, where some begin with 'a ' and some don't.Making them consistent would suffice, but ideally it would support answers both with and without the prefixed "a " and "to "
Mike01 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I also find this frustrating. The same problem exists with nouns, where some begin with 'a ' and some don't.Making them consistent would suffice, but ideally it would support answers both with and without the prefixed "a " and "to "
I also find this frustrating. The same problem exists with nouns, where some begin with 'a ' and some don't.Making them consistent would suffice, but ideally it would support answers both with and without the prefixed "a " and "to "
benwhately 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Just checking the conventions - http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... - there seems to be no mention of use of articles. So lets add something in so that everyone can be working to the same plan. What should the convention be? What is most widely used on the site at the moment?Thanks,Ben
Just checking the conventions - http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... - there seems to be no mention of use of articles. So lets add something in so that everyone can be working to the same plan. What should the convention be? What is most widely used on the site at the moment?Thanks,Ben
phoenixphreak 2 months, 2 weeks ago
At what point must we enter English by typing the answer? I've only seen English used as the 'hint' or as a list of options as the testing progresses more towards producing the Japanese word from Hiragana to Kanji.
At what point must we enter English by typing the answer? I've only seen English used as the 'hint' or as a list of options as the testing progresses more towards producing the Japanese word from Hiragana to Kanji.
cacoethes 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I see it most often formatted the way JDIC/EDICT has it. I am copying and pasting from their Editorial policy wiki:Make sure the meaning agrees with the part-of-speech. If the Japanese word is a noun, don't make the translation a verb (e.g. to xxxx) If a term can stand alone (as a noun or participle), list [n] as the first part-of-speech and give the noun form in the translation. Do not list verb translations for nouns that can also be used as verbs (i.e. [n,vs]). See the 料理 entry, which has: "cooking; cookery; cuisine", not "cook".When entering a verb, use the infinitive in English (to run, to jump, etc.) Do not precede the meaning with the articles "a", "an" or "the" unless it is absolutely necessary to make the meaning clear.
I see it most often formatted the way JDIC/EDICT has it. I am copying and pasting from their Editorial policy wiki:Make sure the meaning agrees with the part-of-speech. If the Japanese word is a noun, don't make the translation a verb (e.g. to xxxx) If a term can stand alone (as a noun or participle), list [n] as the first part-of-speech and give the noun form in the translation. Do not list verb translations for nouns that can also be used as verbs (i.e. [n,vs]). See the 料理 entry, which has: "cooking; cookery; cuisine", not "cook".When entering a verb, use the infinitive in English (to run, to jump, etc.) Do not precede the meaning with the articles "a", "an" or "the" unless it is absolutely necessary to make the meaning clear.
Mike01 2 months, 2 weeks ago
This sounds perfect. Edit: I just wanted to add that the conventions FAQ has an example that contradicts the JDIC/EDICT policy posted above. The single Kanji example 読 has a definition of 'to read'. If the above policy was adopted, this should be changed to 'read' or similar, with perhaps another example for '読む / to read' to provide contrast.Of course, making these changes now could cause some frustrations with users watering existing gardens. Perhaps it would be best to use the above policy for primary definitions but have additional definitions that contain articles or verbs for single Kanji. That, or look at making articles optional/ignored in testing.
This sounds perfect. Edit: I just wanted to add that the conventions FAQ has an example that contradicts the JDIC/EDICT policy posted above. The single Kanji example 読 has a definition of 'to read'. If the above policy was adopted, this should be changed to 'read' or similar, with perhaps another example for '読む / to read' to provide contrast.Of course, making these changes now could cause some frustrations with users watering existing gardens. Perhaps it would be best to use the above policy for primary definitions but have additional definitions that contain articles or verbs for single Kanji. That, or look at making articles optional/ignored in testing.
cacoethes 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Can we please edit the Japanese faq so that our conventions match the way JDIC and most other dictionaries enter the kanji?
The examples given in the Memrise faq are "backwards" to the way they are entered in most dictionaries. The examples (imo) should be 行く to go and 読 read, as Mike said. 95% of the words in the Japanese Kanji topic already conform to the JDIC policies so it would be much easier to follow their example.
Can we please edit the Japanese faq so that our conventions match the way JDIC and most other dictionaries enter the kanji?
The examples given in the Memrise faq are "backwards" to the way they are entered in most dictionaries. The examples (imo) should be 行く to go and 読 read, as Mike said. 95% of the words in the Japanese Kanji topic already conform to the JDIC policies so it would be much easier to follow their example.
benwhately 1 month, 2 weeks ago
This sounds like we definitely need to tweak the FAQ - cacoethes would you mind rewriting the text for that bit and posting it here and then I will get it fixed. That would be brilliant, thanks!
This sounds like we definitely need to tweak the FAQ - cacoethes would you mind rewriting the text for that bit and posting it here and then I will get it fixed. That would be brilliant, thanks!
phoenixphreak 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Also, please have a very simple version at the top. Explain that in the Main Japanese section words are first shown as Kana, but will later have the kanji introduced and tested as the main Japanese cue. When entering words, even if Kanji is preferred, please have the main item be Kana, the main definition the English definition, then the Kanji as Kanji.
Thanks!
Also, please have a very simple version at the top. Explain that in the Main Japanese section words are first shown as Kana, but will later have the kanji introduced and tested as the main Japanese cue. When entering words, even if Kanji is preferred, please have the main item be Kana, the main definition the English definition, then the Kanji as Kanji.
Thanks!
cacoethes 1 month, 2 weeks ago
I tried to clean it up a bit. Maybe someone has a better way to explain the verb/noun issue? I am not very good at wording things. :) Here's my suggestion:
There are three Japanese Topics - "Japanese," "Japanese Kanji" and "Japanese Kana". "Japanese" tests Kana first and then Kanji. "Japanese Kanji" tests Kanji first and then Kana. "Japanese Kana" is intended purely for learning to read the Hiragana and Katakana.
In the Japanese topic:
The Kana is written in the Kana word field, the Kanji is written in the Kanji field. We initially test the Kana for each word and then introduce the kanji once there is a level of familiarity with the word.
Words that have no kanji should be written only in Kana (hiragana or katakana or both, separated by a semi colon).
Items will be defined in English.
A single definition should be used, but if multiple definitions are necessary they should be separated by a semi colon and a space. Example: Slow; Early. This does cause some trickiness in testing, but we have to deal with this for all languages as there is often a little ambiguity.
Extraneous information should be avoided, but if necessary it should be listed after the definition and in parenthesis. Example: (formal) or (informal)
Standard dictionary forms should be used (e.g. いく) rather than the polite form, eg (e.g. いきます）.
For na-adjectives, the na should not be listed in the word field, but na-adjective should be put in the "part of speech" field.
For i-adjectives, the -i should be listed in the word field and i-adjective in the part of speech field.
Adverbs should be recorded in their full ーい or ーな forms.
Avoid using articles such as "a", "an" and "the".
In Japanese Kanji topic:
The Kanji is written in the Japanese Kanji field.
The Onyomi and Kunyomi readings of Kanji are written in the Kana field, separated by a semi colon so that either pronunciation is marked correct. They will be introduced after the learner has familiarity with the Kanji's meaning.
Use the noun form in definitions unless it is specifically a verb, such as 読む. Use "to xxx" if it is a verb.
Entry Examples:
Basic entry:
Kana: いく
Kanji: 行く
English: to go
Extraneous information:
Kana: いった
Kanji: 行った
English: went (informal)
Multiple definition:
Kana: はやい
Kanji: 早い
English: fast; early
Single kanji in Japanese Kanji topic:
Japanese Kanji: 読
Kana: ドク; よ
English: read
Verbs in Japanese Kanji topic:
Japanese Kanji: 読む
Kana: よむ
English: to read
I tried to clean it up a bit. Maybe someone has a better way to explain the verb/noun issue? I am not very good at wording things. :) Here's my suggestion:
There are three Japanese Topics - "Japanese," "Japanese Kanji" and "Japanese Kana". "Japanese" tests Kana first and then Kanji. "Japanese Kanji" tests Kanji first and then Kana. "Japanese Kana" is intended purely for learning to read the Hiragana and Katakana.
In the Japanese topic:
The Kana is written in the Kana word field, the Kanji is written in the Kanji field. We initially test the Kana for each word and then introduce the kanji once there is a level of familiarity with the word.
Words that have no kanji should be written only in Kana (hiragana or katakana or both, separated by a semi colon).
Items will be defined in English.
A single definition should be used, but if multiple definitions are necessary they should be separated by a semi colon and a space. Example: Slow; Early. This does cause some trickiness in testing, but we have to deal with this for all languages as there is often a little ambiguity.
Extraneous information should be avoided, but if necessary it should be listed after the definition and in parenthesis. Example: (formal) or (informal)
Standard dictionary forms should be used (e.g. いく) rather than the polite form, eg (e.g. いきます）.
For na-adjectives, the na should not be listed in the word field, but na-adjective should be put in the "part of speech" field.
For i-adjectives, the -i should be listed in the word field and i-adjective in the part of speech field.
Adverbs should be recorded in their full ーい or ーな forms.
Avoid using articles such as "a", "an" and "the".
In Japanese Kanji topic:
The Kanji is written in the Japanese Kanji field.
The Onyomi and Kunyomi readings of Kanji are written in the Kana field, separated by a semi colon so that either pronunciation is marked correct. They will be introduced after the learner has familiarity with the Kanji's meaning.
Use the noun form in definitions unless it is specifically a verb, such as 読む. Use "to xxx" if it is a verb.
Entry Examples:
Basic entry:
Kana: いく
Kanji: 行く
English: to go
Extraneous information:
Kana: いった
Kanji: 行った
English: went (informal)
Multiple definition:
Kana: はやい
Kanji: 早い
English: fast; early
Single kanji in Japanese Kanji topic:
Japanese Kanji: 読
Kana: ドク; よ
English: read
Verbs in Japanese Kanji topic:
Japanese Kanji: 読む
Kana: よむ
English: to read
cacoethes 1 month, 2 weeks ago
If anyone changes a main entry to delete the "to", please make sure you reenter it in the alternatives. If you put a _ before it, like "_to read", it will be hidden while users are learning the word but it will still be accepted as correct.
If anyone changes a main entry to delete the "to", please make sure you reenter it in the alternatives. If you put a _ before it, like "_to read", it will be hidden while users are learning the word but it will still be accepted as correct.
benwhately 1 month, 2 weeks ago
BRilliant, I have now posted those to the FAQ page, so let me know if anyone would like any more edits made. Thanks very much cacoethes!
Best wishes
Ben
BRilliant, I have now posted those to the FAQ page, so let me know if anyone would like any more edits made. Thanks very much cacoethes!
Best wishes
Ben
Mike01 3 weeks, 2 days ago
Glad to see the convention changes went in. I was away from my computer for the last month (in Japan) so I wasn't available to contribute.
I do have one concern with the updated FAQ examples - the example for Extraneous information (行った). I think the entire example is extraneous as I don't believe that conjugated verbs should be included, however the description above the examples seems to indicate that only the text within the parenthesis is extraneous. Perhaps we could use an otherwise valid example where only the content in parenthesis is extraneous (or ideally, not so extraneous so that there would be a justification for including it) so that nobody is confused, or else indicate that the example is essentially just a duplicate of 行く.
On a related note, I did a few quick searches through the dictionary and didn't see any entries of conjugated verbs. So at least that isn't something to worry about.
Thoughts?
Glad to see the convention changes went in. I was away from my computer for the last month (in Japan) so I wasn't available to contribute.
I do have one concern with the updated FAQ examples - the example for Extraneous information (行った). I think the entire example is extraneous as I don't believe that conjugated verbs should be included, however the description above the examples seems to indicate that only the text within the parenthesis is extraneous. Perhaps we could use an otherwise valid example where only the content in parenthesis is extraneous (or ideally, not so extraneous so that there would be a justification for including it) so that nobody is confused, or else indicate that the example is essentially just a duplicate of 行く.
On a related note, I did a few quick searches through the dictionary and didn't see any entries of conjugated verbs. So at least that isn't something to worry about.
Thoughts?
ikenaiAndi 3 weeks, 2 days ago
I can only think of two verbs worth to be learned in their conjugated form off the top of my head, and that would be 怒って（い）る and 似て（い）る
There are some more though.
Not sure whether to call that grammar or "fixed expression".
What are your thoughts on these (and similar stuff)?
I can only think of two verbs worth to be learned in their conjugated form off the top of my head, and that would be 怒って（い）る and 似て（い）る
There are some more though.
Not sure whether to call that grammar or "fixed expression".
What are your thoughts on these (and similar stuff)?
Mike01 3 weeks, 2 days ago
I'm not sure why you think those two should be learned in て form. They aren't exceptions to the normal conjugation rules or have any unexpected meaning in that form.... do they? Perhaps there is more to them than I am aware of?
As far as common expressions go, I could see learning things like 行って来る or 持って行く separately - these are common enough that dictionaries tend to list them as set expressions.
I'm not sure why you think those two should be learned in て form. They aren't exceptions to the normal conjugation rules or have any unexpected meaning in that form.... do they? Perhaps there is more to them than I am aware of?
As far as common expressions go, I could see learning things like 行って来る or 持って行く separately - these are common enough that dictionaries tend to list them as set expressions.
ikenaiAndi 3 weeks, 2 days ago
The meanings and grammatical rules still apply. However, by using them in the -te forum, you get different nuances. Just like 変わる、変わってる、変わった are 3 versions of basically the same thing, however, each standing for a different state, being used differently.
By the way, no idea why all the dictionaries write aux verbs in Kanji when every Japanese person I've met until today writes them as 持っていく、持ってくる
The meanings and grammatical rules still apply. However, by using them in the -te forum, you get different nuances. Just like 変わる、変わってる、変わった are 3 versions of basically the same thing, however, each standing for a different state, being used differently.
By the way, no idea why all the dictionaries write aux verbs in Kanji when every Japanese person I've met until today writes them as 持っていく、持ってくる
Mike01 3 weeks, 2 days ago
Well, so many verbs have different nuances when conjugated in different forms that I think it would be hard to come up with a strict criteria on what should be learned separately in a conjugated form. I think a lot of this stems from the fact that the English (or other language) definition provided for the plain form is just a generalization of a meaning in Japanese that doesn't exist (at least not exactly) in the other language.
I don't think it hurts to include these separately. My earlier post was more concerned with conjugations of verbs where there really isn't any nuance (the example 行った being a good example of this, at least in English).
Side note: several of my dictionaries also list 変わってる as a set expression (but not 怒ってる or 似てる), although in this case it's more than just a subtle nuance.
I don't think the aux verbs in Kanji are as common, but I've seen them used quite a bit. For comparison, Google has the following results:
”持っていく” 11,800,000 results
”持って行く” 6,640,000 results
Dictionaries might put them in kanji to show that they can be used (even if less common), or in the case of electronic dictionaries to better support searching by kanji or related words. That's my guess.
Well, so many verbs have different nuances when conjugated in different forms that I think it would be hard to come up with a strict criteria on what should be learned separately in a conjugated form. I think a lot of this stems from the fact that the English (or other language) definition provided for the plain form is just a generalization of a meaning in Japanese that doesn't exist (at least not exactly) in the other language.
I don't think it hurts to include these separately. My earlier post was more concerned with conjugations of verbs where there really isn't any nuance (the example 行った being a good example of this, at least in English).
Side note: several of my dictionaries also list 変わってる as a set expression (but not 怒ってる or 似てる), although in this case it's more than just a subtle nuance.
I don't think the aux verbs in Kanji are as common, but I've seen them used quite a bit. For comparison, Google has the following results:
”持っていく” 11,800,000 results
”持って行く” 6,640,000 results
Dictionaries might put them in kanji to show that they can be used (even if less common), or in the case of electronic dictionaries to better support searching by kanji or related words. That's my guess.
jlptbootcamp 3 weeks, 1 day ago
I do agree that the example for extraneous information is a bit misleading. A good example that it could be replaced by that I can think of off the top of my head is 拾う:
Word: ひろう
kanji: 拾う
Definition: to pick (smb,smth) up
It highlights the fact the the word can be used for both things and people, the same way we use it in English. What do you think?
As for conjugations being in the dictionary, I don't think they are necessary of course, but there isn't any harm in them being there. I mean if you don't want to learn them then just don't include them in your set. If some beginners want to practice conjugating than more power to them.
I do agree that the example for extraneous information is a bit misleading. A good example that it could be replaced by that I can think of off the top of my head is 拾う:
Word: ひろう
kanji: 拾う
Definition: to pick (smb,smth) up
It highlights the fact the the word can be used for both things and people, the same way we use it in English. What do you think?
As for conjugations being in the dictionary, I don't think they are necessary of course, but there isn't any harm in them being there. I mean if you don't want to learn them then just don't include them in your set. If some beginners want to practice conjugating than more power to them.
ikenaiAndi 3 weeks, 1 day ago
I've actually been corrected by natives on Lang-8 when I used 持って来る and the like. Then again, natives also "fixed" my 分かる to わかる. Probably because my entries were in casual Japanese, not formal at all, "diary" style.
I agree with the definition above. Can't wait to see the example sentence fill-in-the-blanks feature and how it fits in any topic that's not "Target Language / English".
I've actually been corrected by natives on Lang-8 when I used 持って来る and the like. Then again, natives also "fixed" my 分かる to わかる. Probably because my entries were in casual Japanese, not formal at all, "diary" style.
I agree with the definition above. Can't wait to see the example sentence fill-in-the-blanks feature and how it fits in any topic that's not "Target Language / English".
Mike01 3 weeks, 1 day ago
I think that's a good choice for an example jlptbootcamp.
IkenaiAndi, I think you are right that they made those corrections because it was casual. It seems to me that in modern casual Japanese more and more kanji are being dropped.
This is definitely going off topic, but I did some searching around google to try to get a feel for what is being used. For て来る and て行く expressions, it seems that for physical actions they are more common (出て行く for example) while for usage like 分かっていく it is less common.
I checked one of my textbooks from university and it states that the Kanji are used for expressions involving physical movement where the original verbs meaning/direction of movement is maintained (持って行く is given as an example) and that these are not considered auxiliary verbs, but are not used for a change in state that does not involve temporal or spatial movement (giving an example using 返していった). The textbook is a bit old though (2000) so it might not reflect common usage, and it tends to provide more formal than casual examples.
I think that's a good choice for an example jlptbootcamp.
IkenaiAndi, I think you are right that they made those corrections because it was casual. It seems to me that in modern casual Japanese more and more kanji are being dropped.
This is definitely going off topic, but I did some searching around google to try to get a feel for what is being used. For て来る and て行く expressions, it seems that for physical actions they are more common (出て行く for example) while for usage like 分かっていく it is less common.
I checked one of my textbooks from university and it states that the Kanji are used for expressions involving physical movement where the original verbs meaning/direction of movement is maintained (持って行く is given as an example) and that these are not considered auxiliary verbs, but are not used for a change in state that does not involve temporal or spatial movement (giving an example using 返していった). The textbook is a bit old though (2000) so it might not reflect common usage, and it tends to provide more formal than casual examples.
ikenaiAndi 3 weeks, 1 day ago
Thanks for looking that up. :)
Yes, in casual writing, everything beyond those 1005 (?) middle school Kanji is being dropped completely. People don't use them in daily life, and Kanji are less and less in use anyways, because no one writes them frequently anymore and thus prople forget how to do it. They can recognize them while reading or typing.
It's perfectly fine with me.
We might be a bit offtopic here, but I think the matter at hand is more or less solved and anything of worth can probably help out some other fellow learner.
Thanks for looking that up. :)
Yes, in casual writing, everything beyond those 1005 (?) middle school Kanji is being dropped completely. People don't use them in daily life, and Kanji are less and less in use anyways, because no one writes them frequently anymore and thus prople forget how to do it. They can recognize them while reading or typing.
It's perfectly fine with me.
We might be a bit offtopic here, but I think the matter at hand is more or less solved and anything of worth can probably help out some other fellow learner.
benwhately 3 weeks, 1 day ago
Great, I have edited the conventions - www.memrise.com/topic/japan... to add that new example. Let me know if that needs any more tweaking. Thanks!
Ben
Great, I have edited the conventions - www.memrise.com/topic/japan... to add that new example. Let me know if that needs any more tweaking. Thanks!
Ben
ikenaiAndi 3 weeks ago
Want me to set up such a FAQ for "Japanisch", too? The conventions are roughly the same, but slight differences exist.
- I handle Katakana like Kanji: There are still Hiragana in the Kana field, Katakana in the Kanji field.
The reasons for this are:
1) Hiragana is the set of characters you usually learn first. They are being used for grammatical purposes, such as inflections
2) To produce Katakana, you do the exact same thing you'd do to produce Kanji: You enter the Hiragana, press [space], select your choice and hit [enter].
- Multiple definitions are okay, for explanatory purposes.
1) Japanese can not be translated directly in many cases. The best you can do to define is "describe" the meaning, and if that means you need 2, 3 words, so be it.
2) The same word's multiple meanings have to be multiple items. 掛ける かける would become 8 items: hängen, haken, schließen, lehnen, hinsetzen, bedecken, legen, anlegen
- Words in Katakana with an equivalent in Kanji have to have "(Katakana)" added.
This way you can have Mittagessen = 昼ごはん and Mittagessen (Katakana) = ランチ without having to resort to different wordings. Mittagessen is just the single most frequently used word for lunch, and the "Katakana" in parentheses makes it quick and simple to distinguish which is which.
___
There are currently no other curators for the topic and the most popular set (out of 2, lol^^) is being learned by only 21 people though, so I'm not sure it's actually necessary, but I'd just translate the well done "Japanese" FAQ and modify it accordingly.
Want me to set up such a FAQ for "Japanisch", too? The conventions are roughly the same, but slight differences exist.
- I handle Katakana like Kanji: There are still Hiragana in the Kana field, Katakana in the Kanji field.
The reasons for this are:
1) Hiragana is the set of characters you usually learn first. They are being used for grammatical purposes, such as inflections
2) To produce Katakana, you do the exact same thing you'd do to produce Kanji: You enter the Hiragana, press [space], select your choice and hit [enter].
- Multiple definitions are okay, for explanatory purposes.
1) Japanese can not be translated directly in many cases. The best you can do to define is "describe" the meaning, and if that means you need 2, 3 words, so be it.
2) The same word's multiple meanings have to be multiple items. 掛ける かける would become 8 items: hängen, haken, schließen, lehnen, hinsetzen, bedecken, legen, anlegen
- Words in Katakana with an equivalent in Kanji have to have "(Katakana)" added.
This way you can have Mittagessen = 昼ごはん and Mittagessen (Katakana) = ランチ without having to resort to different wordings. Mittagessen is just the single most frequently used word for lunch, and the "Katakana" in parentheses makes it quick and simple to distinguish which is which.
___
There are currently no other curators for the topic and the most popular set (out of 2, lol^^) is being learned by only 21 people though, so I'm not sure it's actually necessary, but I'd just translate the well done "Japanese" FAQ and modify it accordingly.
benwhately 3 weeks ago
That sounds great, send them over and I will get them up on the site. Thanks!
Ben
That sounds great, send them over and I will get them up on the site. Thanks!
Ben
ikenaiAndi 3 weeks ago
Wie füge ich auf Memrise Worte und Definitionen hinzu?
Im Folgenden findest Du die Richtlinien, nach denen neue Inhalte hinzu gefügt werden sollten. Diese dienen dazu, allen Benutzern zu ermöglichen, Worte auf eine Weise in die Datenbank einzutragen, die sicher stellt, dass ein optimaler Lernerfolg garantiert ist.
Die Kana-Version wird in's Kana-Feld eingetragen, entsprechend das Kanji in's Kanji-Feld.
Memrise testet zunächst die Kana, bis das Wort vertraut ist; dann folgen Tests des Kanji.
Worte ohne Kanji werden in Kana in's Kanji-Feld eingetragen.
Bei Katakana-Worten wird die Katakana-Version in's Kanji-Feld eingetragen, die Version in Hiragana in's Kana-Feld.
Im Feld "Definition" steht die deutsche Version.
Es ist möglich, mehrere Definitionen einzutragen, um die Bedeutung zu klarifizieren. Worte mit mehreren Bedeutungen allerdings gehören getrennt eingetragen.
Aus dem Wort 掛ける würden also 8 Einträge werden: hängen, haken, schließen, lehnen, hinsetzen, bedecken, legen, anlegen
Katakanaworte mit einem Äquivalent in Kanji sollten entsprechend gekennzeichnet werden, z.B.
Mittagessen 昼ごはん
Mittagessen (Katakana) ランチ
Es sollten die Grundformen von Worten verwendet werden (z.B. 行く) statt konjugierter oder höflicher Formen (z.B. 行きます)
na-Adjektive werden ohne な eingetragen.
Bitte verwendet keine Artikel (ein, eine, der, die das).
That's it. I didn't translate the "Kanji" section, as the "Japanisch - Kanji" topic in its current form.. hrm.. let's not talk about that.
Wie füge ich auf Memrise Worte und Definitionen hinzu?
Im Folgenden findest Du die Richtlinien, nach denen neue Inhalte hinzu gefügt werden sollten. Diese dienen dazu, allen Benutzern zu ermöglichen, Worte auf eine Weise in die Datenbank einzutragen, die sicher stellt, dass ein optimaler Lernerfolg garantiert ist.
Die Kana-Version wird in's Kana-Feld eingetragen, entsprechend das Kanji in's Kanji-Feld.
Memrise testet zunächst die Kana, bis das Wort vertraut ist; dann folgen Tests des Kanji.
Worte ohne Kanji werden in Kana in's Kanji-Feld eingetragen.
Bei Katakana-Worten wird die Katakana-Version in's Kanji-Feld eingetragen, die Version in Hiragana in's Kana-Feld.
Im Feld "Definition" steht die deutsche Version.
Es ist möglich, mehrere Definitionen einzutragen, um die Bedeutung zu klarifizieren. Worte mit mehreren Bedeutungen allerdings gehören getrennt eingetragen.
Aus dem Wort 掛ける würden also 8 Einträge werden: hängen, haken, schließen, lehnen, hinsetzen, bedecken, legen, anlegen
Katakanaworte mit einem Äquivalent in Kanji sollten entsprechend gekennzeichnet werden, z.B.
Mittagessen 昼ごはん
Mittagessen (Katakana) ランチ
Es sollten die Grundformen von Worten verwendet werden (z.B. 行く) statt konjugierter oder höflicher Formen (z.B. 行きます)
na-Adjektive werden ohne な eingetragen.
Bitte verwendet keine Artikel (ein, eine, der, die das).
That's it. I didn't translate the "Kanji" section, as the "Japanisch - Kanji" topic in its current form.. hrm.. let's not talk about that.
benwhately 3 weeks ago
Great, I have added those here - http://www.memrise.com/topi...
Let me know if it needs any tweaking, thanks!
Ben
Great, I have added those here - http://www.memrise.com/topi...
Let me know if it needs any tweaking, thanks!
Ben
@Ben
There are some words used in the main Japanese language course that are link to words in this Japanese course:
http://www.memrise.com/topi...
When you have a chance, could you check through it for the words I put comments on to move them back to the main Japanese language courses?
There are some words used in the main Japanese language course that are link to words in this Japanese course:
http://www.memrise.com/topi...
When you have a chance, could you check through it for the words I put comments on to move them back to the main Japanese language courses?
16 comments
Latest 3 weeks ago
cacoethes 1 month, 1 week ago
This is a bit out of control.. I think the problem is that the waseda course (with about eight thousand words) got moved to the dan.millichip section, and moved a *ton* of words from the Japanese section with it! Mayday! Would moving the Waseda course back to Japanese topic fix this problem?
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
And the list goes on...
This is a bit out of control.. I think the problem is that the waseda course (with about eight thousand words) got moved to the dan.millichip section, and moved a *ton* of words from the Japanese section with it! Mayday! Would moving the Waseda course back to Japanese topic fix this problem?
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
And the list goes on...
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
I think moving it back would be worse. Yes, maybe 1% of 8000 words is still 80 words, but having those extra 7200 makes the main Japanese section too mucked up.
For many of those words, if they share the Japanese main word or English definition, we can merge them in with other popular replicas in the main Japanese section.
I think moving it back would be worse. Yes, maybe 1% of 8000 words is still 80 words, but having those extra 7200 makes the main Japanese section too mucked up.
For many of those words, if they share the Japanese main word or English definition, we can merge them in with other popular replicas in the main Japanese section.
cacoethes 1 month, 1 week ago
Ok, sorry, I freaked out prematurely. Only two Japanese Kanji words were moved so I left comments on those words.
I know you guys are putting a lot of effort into fixing up the wiki, and I really appreciate it! ^.^
Ok, sorry, I freaked out prematurely. Only two Japanese Kanji words were moved so I left comments on those words.
I know you guys are putting a lot of effort into fixing up the wiki, and I really appreciate it! ^.^
benwhately 1 month, 1 week ago
@cacoethes, I have moved all those ones over - I do see that this is a very boring problem, but I *think* that we are near fixing it, and once it is fixed, it will be fixed for good! Thank you for your patience in pointing these all out.
Best wishes
Ben
@cacoethes, I have moved all those ones over - I do see that this is a very boring problem, but I *think* that we are near fixing it, and once it is fixed, it will be fixed for good! Thank you for your patience in pointing these all out.
Best wishes
Ben
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
Sorry for my bad math before. It should have been 80 versus 7920*.
Also, if I can do anything to help fix anything, let me know!
Sorry for my bad math before. It should have been 80 versus 7920*.
Also, if I can do anything to help fix anything, let me know!
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month, 1 week ago
There are probably still 100+ of these outstanding. I find like 5 new ones every day. :(
I wouldn't care except that they get stuck as needing to be watered in my garden and also never test on the kanji.
There are probably still 100+ of these outstanding. I find like 5 new ones every day. :(
I wouldn't care except that they get stuck as needing to be watered in my garden and also never test on the kanji.
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month ago
Ones that are still cluttering my garden:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Ones that are still cluttering my garden:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
There are currently two entries in the dictionary for 一時 that are approved. One for 'moment' and the other for 'temporarily'. This can also mean 1 o'clock of course, but I figured that is pretty easy to understand.
Anyway, should these two be combined into one word? or are they separate words? I think temporarily is a good meaning/definition for both. But what do you think?
Anyway, should these two be combined into one word? or are they separate words? I think temporarily is a good meaning/definition for both. But what do you think?
27 comments
Latest 3 weeks, 1 day ago
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
What are the actual Kana?
Words like いちがつ and ひとつき are two different words but both can be represented by the Kanji 一月.
What are the actual Kana?
Words like いちがつ and ひとつき are two different words but both can be represented by the Kanji 一月.
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 1 week ago
All of these meanings are represented as いちじ at least according to wwwjdic.
All of these meanings are represented as いちじ at least according to wwwjdic.
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 1 week ago
Just to confuse things more 英辞郎 on the web has it as: at one point （in time),
for an undisclosed period
The first one seems to encapsulate a lot of the meanings.
Just to confuse things more 英辞郎 on the web has it as: at one point （in time),
for an undisclosed period
The first one seems to encapsulate a lot of the meanings.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
Okay, that makes it difficult...
I still think they might be 'different' words, though I would definitely put the alternative English meanings down. I think having multiple entries for very unique uses of words should be okay:
1) いちじ - one o'clock
2) いちじ - moment
Yes, they might get confusing when learned together, but when a person makes a specific course they can choose the entry they want that course to focus on.
I dunno... 難しいだね。。。
Okay, that makes it difficult...
I still think they might be 'different' words, though I would definitely put the alternative English meanings down. I think having multiple entries for very unique uses of words should be okay:
1) いちじ - one o'clock
2) いちじ - moment
Yes, they might get confusing when learned together, but when a person makes a specific course they can choose the entry they want that course to focus on.
I dunno... 難しいだね。。。
cacoethes 1 month, 1 week ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
I think this one should be merged into temporarily.
一時の > いちじの > temporary, momentary
一時> ひととき > moment (it's already an entry, http://www.memrise.com/item...)
http://www.memrise.com/item...
I think this one should be merged into temporarily.
一時の > いちじの > temporary, momentary
一時> ひととき > moment (it's already an entry, http://www.memrise.com/item...)
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 1 week ago
一時 means both, but the pronunciation will be either いちじ (1 o'clock) or ひととき (a little while/moment).
on memrise, this would lead to two different words.
both are NOT synonyms at all.
一時 means both, but the pronunciation will be either いちじ (1 o'clock) or ひととき (a little while/moment).
on memrise, this would lead to two different words.
both are NOT synonyms at all.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 1 week ago
(putting the の) after it is like adding genders to nouns in other language topics - not so great. you learm that "Schrank" is male, but memrise doesn't ask you for "der Schrank" for a reason.
i would remove that particle, it does more harm than good.
(putting the の) after it is like adding genders to nouns in other language topics - not so great. you learm that "Schrank" is male, but memrise doesn't ask you for "der Schrank" for a reason.
i would remove that particle, it does more harm than good.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 1 week ago
一時 いちじ (n-t, n-adv, adj-no, n)
一時 ひととき (n-t,n-adv,arch)
they're also different parts of speech
used as an adverb, 一時の would be incorrect
一時 いちじ (n-t, n-adv, adj-no, n)
一時 ひととき (n-t,n-adv,arch)
they're also different parts of speech
used as an adverb, 一時の would be incorrect
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 1 week ago
and by the way, why do we teach grammar on memrise? there's no need to teach the same thing in every imaginable inflected form. wasn't the convention like that anyways, originally?
that's like teaching the masu-stem for every verb as a noun separately.
and by the way, why do we teach grammar on memrise? there's no need to teach the same thing in every imaginable inflected form. wasn't the convention like that anyways, originally?
that's like teaching the masu-stem for every verb as a noun separately.
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 1 week ago
OK, after doing a bit of research and asking a few 'natives' this is what I found out about all this:
ひととき means 'a moment' for example:
くつろいだひととき
a relaxing moment.
It is often written in kana like ひととき or ひと時, as you can see in these examples over at 英辞郎.
いちじ on the other hand is usually written in kanji and means 'for a moment' or 'temporary' and generally not 'a moment' and can not be used in the same way as ひととき.
Most Japanese understand which pronunciation to use from context.
So, I'm thinking for the 一時 -> いちじ word, we should put 'for the moment' or 'temporary'. We can put 1 o'clock in the alternatives, but we already have 1 and o'clock as words so what is the point of having "1 o'clock"?
For 一時 -> ひととき maybe put '(a) moment'? I think this word is generally older and more poetic sounding from what I could gather.
OK, after doing a bit of research and asking a few 'natives' this is what I found out about all this:
ひととき means 'a moment' for example:
くつろいだひととき
a relaxing moment.
It is often written in kana like ひととき or ひと時, as you can see in these examples over at 英辞郎.
いちじ on the other hand is usually written in kanji and means 'for a moment' or 'temporary' and generally not 'a moment' and can not be used in the same way as ひととき.
Most Japanese understand which pronunciation to use from context.
So, I'm thinking for the 一時 -> いちじ word, we should put 'for the moment' or 'temporary'. We can put 1 o'clock in the alternatives, but we already have 1 and o'clock as words so what is the point of having "1 o'clock"?
For 一時 -> ひととき maybe put '(a) moment'? I think this word is generally older and more poetic sounding from what I could gather.
ikenaiAndi 1 month ago
Just remove the Kanji or parts of it and be done with it. It doesn't matter whether or not it's written language or not (Japanese has quite a bit of that), as at the end of the day, you'll be better off having learned those, too.
Just remove the Kanji or parts of it and be done with it. It doesn't matter whether or not it's written language or not (Japanese has quite a bit of that), as at the end of the day, you'll be better off having learned those, too.
cacoethes 1 month ago
I was never suggesting that we should add the の to the word. Sorry for making things more confusing. I was trying to add context (for this forum discussion) of different ways that the word is used.
My only point was that we don't need http://www.memrise.com/item... since we already have http://www.memrise.com/item... and http://www.memrise.com/item... ..... which need to be separate, as Mac said.
I don't get what you mean andi. How do you think the entry should be?
I was never suggesting that we should add the の to the word. Sorry for making things more confusing. I was trying to add context (for this forum discussion) of different ways that the word is used.
My only point was that we don't need http://www.memrise.com/item... since we already have http://www.memrise.com/item... and http://www.memrise.com/item... ..... which need to be separate, as Mac said.
I don't get what you mean andi. How do you think the entry should be?
ikenaiAndi 1 month ago
Hmm? I explained that above. Make 2 cards, one for "moment", one for "1 o'clock".
But TBH, who on earth needs to learn "1 o'clock" here?
If one doesn't know it, they're better off doing some basic stuff first, because amassing vocab in isolated fashion does nothing for beginners.
Hmm? I explained that above. Make 2 cards, one for "moment", one for "1 o'clock".
But TBH, who on earth needs to learn "1 o'clock" here?
If one doesn't know it, they're better off doing some basic stuff first, because amassing vocab in isolated fashion does nothing for beginners.
jlptbootcamp 1 month ago
OK, so I'm going with what I suggested above, that seems to make the most sense.
@ikenaiAndi I'm not sure how the idea of having 1 o'clock as one of the definition came up, but I don't think we need it either, I'm just going to put it down as 'for a moment' that seems to make the most sense.
As for merging the words cacoethes, we don't have a lot of fine control over the merging process. For example, I can't pick out two words of my choosing and merge them. The interface just gives us a random selection of what is in the dictionary. Hopefully these two words will pop up soon and we can put this all to bed.
Anyway, thanks everyone for the comments and the clarifications. I'm sure I'll be picking your brains again soon :)
OK, so I'm going with what I suggested above, that seems to make the most sense.
@ikenaiAndi I'm not sure how the idea of having 1 o'clock as one of the definition came up, but I don't think we need it either, I'm just going to put it down as 'for a moment' that seems to make the most sense.
As for merging the words cacoethes, we don't have a lot of fine control over the merging process. For example, I can't pick out two words of my choosing and merge them. The interface just gives us a random selection of what is in the dictionary. Hopefully these two words will pop up soon and we can put this all to bed.
Anyway, thanks everyone for the comments and the clarifications. I'm sure I'll be picking your brains again soon :)
cacoethes 1 month ago
"we don't have a lot of fine control over the merging process"
Oh, that is very good to know. Thank you. ^.^
"we don't have a lot of fine control over the merging process"
Oh, that is very good to know. Thank you. ^.^
phoenixphreak 1 month ago
Realistically, each entry is a unique word. What kanji they are represented by is just a happenstance. For example the kanji for 一月 represents both いちがつ and ひとつき. But these are two different words (with two different English meanings).
Therefore, I think the same would be true for 一時.
Also, I think many people would like to learn the 'words' いちじ、にじ、etc. Though it is a compound word of 1 and hour, it is unique as being 'one o'clock' compared to いちじ（かん） for 'one hour'.
The same would be true for other compound situations. As IkenaiAndi says, you don't need to learn おんがくまつり if you already know おんがく and まつり, but it doesn't hurt to see the two together and I would argue it is a useful compound word...
ひととき and いちじ are two different words.
Realistically, each entry is a unique word. What kanji they are represented by is just a happenstance. For example the kanji for 一月 represents both いちがつ and ひとつき. But these are two different words (with two different English meanings).
Therefore, I think the same would be true for 一時.
Also, I think many people would like to learn the 'words' いちじ、にじ、etc. Though it is a compound word of 1 and hour, it is unique as being 'one o'clock' compared to いちじ（かん） for 'one hour'.
The same would be true for other compound situations. As IkenaiAndi says, you don't need to learn おんがくまつり if you already know おんがく and まつり, but it doesn't hurt to see the two together and I would argue it is a useful compound word...
ひととき and いちじ are two different words.
ikenaiAndi 3 weeks, 2 days ago
It's perfectly fine to have compounds like 駐車場、拘束時間、精神的ショック and so on. It would make sense to teach the parts, then the compound in order, so it'll be like building a house with bricks, but unfortunately, you get most stuff randomized here. You might know 拍手喝采する before you learn 拍手. That's a different story, but.. "1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock" and so on are similar things: little "buildings".
Wouldn't it be absolutely cool if we could rearrange the order we teach the words in our lists? There would be so much funky stuff we could do with that, making things so much easier..
It's perfectly fine to have compounds like 駐車場、拘束時間、精神的ショック and so on. It would make sense to teach the parts, then the compound in order, so it'll be like building a house with bricks, but unfortunately, you get most stuff randomized here. You might know 拍手喝采する before you learn 拍手. That's a different story, but.. "1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock" and so on are similar things: little "buildings".
Wouldn't it be absolutely cool if we could rearrange the order we teach the words in our lists? There would be so much funky stuff we could do with that, making things so much easier..
cacoethes 3 weeks, 2 days ago
"Wouldn't it be absolutely cool if we could rearrange the order we teach the words in our lists?"
Have you tried playing around with the "fix dependencies"? Are you talking about something like this, or something different?
"Wouldn't it be absolutely cool if we could rearrange the order we teach the words in our lists?"
Have you tried playing around with the "fix dependencies"? Are you talking about something like this, or something different?
ikenaiAndi 3 weeks, 2 days ago
i never touched dependencies, because i don't know exactly what i'd do if i modified those. can you show me a link to an explanation for this?
i never touched dependencies, because i don't know exactly what i'd do if i modified those. can you show me a link to an explanation for this?
cacoethes 3 weeks, 1 day ago
I can't find an explanation of it anywhere. I will try my best:
For the word 駐車場 you could add 駐車 and 場 as Parents of the word 駐車場. This would automatically make the wordcards 駐車 and 場 show 駐車場 as a Dependent.
If someone has 駐車場 on their list and clicks the "fix dependencies" button, it will add the two Parents 駐車 and 場 to the list, right before 駐車場. That way you learn the building blocks before the longer word.
It's not perfect, because it only works for the words where curators have added the dependents/parents. I am guessing that for the Japanisch topic that means a lot haven't been added yet. :/ Also, once you hit the fix dependencies button, you add every parent the system can find for your words, so you end up adding a bunch of words to your list at once. Test it out on small lists first lol.
I can't find an explanation of it anywhere. I will try my best:
For the word 駐車場 you could add 駐車 and 場 as Parents of the word 駐車場. This would automatically make the wordcards 駐車 and 場 show 駐車場 as a Dependent.
If someone has 駐車場 on their list and clicks the "fix dependencies" button, it will add the two Parents 駐車 and 場 to the list, right before 駐車場. That way you learn the building blocks before the longer word.
It's not perfect, because it only works for the words where curators have added the dependents/parents. I am guessing that for the Japanisch topic that means a lot haven't been added yet. :/ Also, once you hit the fix dependencies button, you add every parent the system can find for your words, so you end up adding a bunch of words to your list at once. Test it out on small lists first lol.
jlptbootcamp 3 weeks, 1 day ago
@ikenaiAndi - if go to edit any word there is a 'dependents' section off to the right, you can click add there to add a word that must be learned before you learn the word you are currently on. In that way you can link say 行ってくる to 行く and 来る if you wanted to. Then the system will give you 行く and 来る before it gives you 行ってくる.
Or at least that is how I understand it.
@ikenaiAndi - if go to edit any word there is a 'dependents' section off to the right, you can click add there to add a word that must be learned before you learn the word you are currently on. In that way you can link say 行ってくる to 行く and 来る if you wanted to. Then the system will give you 行く and 来る before it gives you 行ってくる.
Or at least that is how I understand it.
jlptbootcamp 3 weeks, 1 day ago
err wait, I think you need to add 行く and 来る to the parents section of 行ってくる sorry. You would add 行ってくる to the dependents of 行く and 来る.
Now, I'm sure I've completely confused everyone.
err wait, I think you need to add 行く and 来る to the parents section of 行ってくる sorry. You would add 行ってくる to the dependents of 行く and 来る.
Now, I'm sure I've completely confused everyone.
ikenaiAndi 3 weeks, 1 day ago
It's there. Seems I have to do all that manually. Uhh! ^^ No way.. ;) That wouldn't leave time for learning, and I've been incredibly busy anyways lately :/
Still trying to catch up with all my due words, managed to fight them down to 490 today.. ahh..
It's there. Seems I have to do all that manually. Uhh! ^^ No way.. ;) That wouldn't leave time for learning, and I've been incredibly busy anyways lately :/
Still trying to catch up with all my due words, managed to fight them down to 490 today.. ahh..
Recently I've felt "stuck" in my studies.
My dictation doesn't seem to be improving. My speaking retains it's American accent rather often. つ has been hit and miss for as long as I can remember. られる is the biggest tongue twister known to mankind.
I've been studying the same material and practicing the same mistakes for months and months now - and have seen no improvement. I still practice my つ and on some days its 'perfect' and on others it sounds like ちゅ or す. It's like I'm inept at remembering how it sounds or is said.
I pick up more vocab here and there because I still do my Memrise study sessions but I feel with my inability to immerse myself in Japanese through speaking and dictation that I'm really getting nowhere fast.
Has anyone felt stuck in a rut like this? How did you get out of it? I really do love and enjoy learning Japanese - and am sad to see my studies in the shape that they are. I just don't know what to do at this point to improve...
My dictation doesn't seem to be improving. My speaking retains it's American accent rather often. つ has been hit and miss for as long as I can remember. られる is the biggest tongue twister known to mankind.
I've been studying the same material and practicing the same mistakes for months and months now - and have seen no improvement. I still practice my つ and on some days its 'perfect' and on others it sounds like ちゅ or す. It's like I'm inept at remembering how it sounds or is said.
I pick up more vocab here and there because I still do my Memrise study sessions but I feel with my inability to immerse myself in Japanese through speaking and dictation that I'm really getting nowhere fast.
Has anyone felt stuck in a rut like this? How did you get out of it? I really do love and enjoy learning Japanese - and am sad to see my studies in the shape that they are. I just don't know what to do at this point to improve...
4 comments
Latest 3 weeks, 2 days ago
jlptbootcamp 3 weeks, 5 days ago
I think anyone studying any language for any length of time hits this kind of barrier. It is usually when your head has to stop and consolidate everything before moving on to the next level.
First of all, are you outside of Japan currently? If you are, I highly recommend finding a conversation partner to chat with. You'll find that your voice will naturally start adapting to what good pronunciation is subconsciously.
Also, just doing a lot of speaking drills will help you. The problem is right now you are thinking way too much about how to form the sounds. You want to replace that with the ability to make the sounds without thinking.
Think of it as an athlete training for the Olympics. An Olympic runner isn't thinking about every step they take, they just do it naturally, and that takes practice to the point that the actions become instinctive.
Try practicing out loud while doing memrise or taking a dialog of tongue twisters and time yourself, keep repeating the dialog and time yourself each time, make it so that you are correctly pronouncing everything but still improving your speed. There will come a point that you will realize you aren't thinking about the individual sounds anymore, but just saying it. That's what worked for me.
The other way to smash through a plateau is to take it to the next level and try material that is above your current level, it will start out as a struggle, but once you get the ball rolling it gets easier.
Anyway, hope that helps.
I think anyone studying any language for any length of time hits this kind of barrier. It is usually when your head has to stop and consolidate everything before moving on to the next level.
First of all, are you outside of Japan currently? If you are, I highly recommend finding a conversation partner to chat with. You'll find that your voice will naturally start adapting to what good pronunciation is subconsciously.
Also, just doing a lot of speaking drills will help you. The problem is right now you are thinking way too much about how to form the sounds. You want to replace that with the ability to make the sounds without thinking.
Think of it as an athlete training for the Olympics. An Olympic runner isn't thinking about every step they take, they just do it naturally, and that takes practice to the point that the actions become instinctive.
Try practicing out loud while doing memrise or taking a dialog of tongue twisters and time yourself, keep repeating the dialog and time yourself each time, make it so that you are correctly pronouncing everything but still improving your speed. There will come a point that you will realize you aren't thinking about the individual sounds anymore, but just saying it. That's what worked for me.
The other way to smash through a plateau is to take it to the next level and try material that is above your current level, it will start out as a struggle, but once you get the ball rolling it gets easier.
Anyway, hope that helps.
ikenaiAndi 3 weeks, 2 days ago
You will have such and such days. Sometimes the world is dark and gloomy, sometimes you're on top of everything, king of the hills.
You will talk with someone and not even notice it's not your native tongue. Then you'll talk with someone else and wonder if that's really Japanese.
You will think about the amount of time you spent on learning the language and find that in the same amount of time, your average college student will have a shaky knowledge of conjunctive forms such as -te, while you can converse rather freely, albeit erroneous and with an accent.
That other student you know jokes around pretty perapera, although you started out around the same time.
So what does this tell us?
Right, nothing.
It doesn't matter what your perceived level is. Your strengths and weaknesses are temporary, in a state of growing, each of your 4 skills on their own, at different paces. Your brain processes some things faster, some slower, differently from the brains of ANY other human being, because you're unique.
I can understand spoken Japanese quite well and speaking makes me produce hormones that make me feel happy. After a few minutes, I'm basically high just by speaking. Now gimme a newspaper and I'll throw up. Damn those 20 synonyms for "production", the damn different readings and those friggin 同じみたいな文字!! Burn them, for all I care! That other dood can't string a fkn sentence together without sounding like an idiot to save his life, but he knows all those 2000 jouyou, he'd win a competition against your average Japanese college graduate when it comes to reading.
So what?
You will absorb information and your brain will process it on its own pace, no matter how much you try to force it to work more. Learning a language takes time. Don't believe idiots like "Benny the Irish polyglot" who claim they'd be fluent in 3 months by just immersion, or whatever. And don't compare yourself to anyone else.
I've listened to and seen writings of Japanese people learning German. I've been learning Japanese for quite some time now. Let me tell you this: Japanese people have it WAY harder than us.
By the way, train your つ with a native to get feedback. Subconscious, automatic pronunciation acquisition is bullshit. leads to fossilized mistakes.
My2c
Andi
You will have such and such days. Sometimes the world is dark and gloomy, sometimes you're on top of everything, king of the hills.
You will talk with someone and not even notice it's not your native tongue. Then you'll talk with someone else and wonder if that's really Japanese.
You will think about the amount of time you spent on learning the language and find that in the same amount of time, your average college student will have a shaky knowledge of conjunctive forms such as -te, while you can converse rather freely, albeit erroneous and with an accent.
That other student you know jokes around pretty perapera, although you started out around the same time.
So what does this tell us?
Right, nothing.
It doesn't matter what your perceived level is. Your strengths and weaknesses are temporary, in a state of growing, each of your 4 skills on their own, at different paces. Your brain processes some things faster, some slower, differently from the brains of ANY other human being, because you're unique.
I can understand spoken Japanese quite well and speaking makes me produce hormones that make me feel happy. After a few minutes, I'm basically high just by speaking. Now gimme a newspaper and I'll throw up. Damn those 20 synonyms for "production", the damn different readings and those friggin 同じみたいな文字!! Burn them, for all I care! That other dood can't string a fkn sentence together without sounding like an idiot to save his life, but he knows all those 2000 jouyou, he'd win a competition against your average Japanese college graduate when it comes to reading.
So what?
You will absorb information and your brain will process it on its own pace, no matter how much you try to force it to work more. Learning a language takes time. Don't believe idiots like "Benny the Irish polyglot" who claim they'd be fluent in 3 months by just immersion, or whatever. And don't compare yourself to anyone else.
I've listened to and seen writings of Japanese people learning German. I've been learning Japanese for quite some time now. Let me tell you this: Japanese people have it WAY harder than us.
By the way, train your つ with a native to get feedback. Subconscious, automatic pronunciation acquisition is bullshit. leads to fossilized mistakes.
My2c
Andi
Tchael 3 weeks, 2 days ago
I do my best to not compare myself to others because of the very reasons you listed. It's rather illogical to do so. :P However I sometimes feel as though the way I'm going around it may be improved by trying out others' methods. There is more than one way to skin a cat and my method might not be the best for me after all. =P
Thanks both for the comments.
I do my best to not compare myself to others because of the very reasons you listed. It's rather illogical to do so. :P However I sometimes feel as though the way I'm going around it may be improved by trying out others' methods. There is more than one way to skin a cat and my method might not be the best for me after all. =P
Thanks both for the comments.
ikenaiAndi 3 weeks, 2 days ago
Not sure if it helps you to hear a list of my personal failures.
You know me still from back in the day, smart.fm - I started out with audio courses, completely ignored the writing systems.
At some point I accepted, but never embraced them. Learning the Kana alone was a PITA for me, and it'll take me forever to learn those Kanji.
I was confident that my pronunciation was rather good, until I was confronted with the truth: my ず too soft, my し too harsh. I intonate words like I'd be from the Kansai area, quite the opposite of how they're being handled in standard Tokyo dialect. Inu instead of iNU, soRA instead of SOra and so on.
I chatted on Facebook and Twitter pretty much right from the start, and the first time I've been humbled in front of my 1500 followers on Twitter was when I said かっこいいだ！ and the girl i chatted with responded with ジジイみたいじゃん.
One time I chatted with some people about some artist. One of my friends added how fashionable that person was, and I answered with 自分の女も可愛いよ！- a pretty macho way to say "yeah, but my girl is cute, too" - while what I actually tried to say way あの女の人自身も可愛いよ. I wondered already what was going on when I received remarks like 羨ましいなあ and 奥さんについて話してるの？ but it was later that I actually got to know what I did there. Needless to say, if there's been a hole, I'd have hid myself there.
I was chatting on Skype with someone and everything made sense. Then with someone else and I wondered if person #1 dumbed down their speech for me, or if person #2 just had their unique way to express herself in a more sophisticated way - or if by chance I just lacked the vocab to get her wordings. Turned out it was coincidence.
I have my Alzheimer moments. The other day, I couldn't come up with 6ヶ月 and a while ago, I wanted to say 天気 but said 狼. I still don't get what I must have been thinking that day.
I occasionally black out while speaking, my mind goes blank and I start to get nervous, because I just completely forgot for no reason how to say something, then tried hard to remember the word while in the process forgetting what I tried to say.
Know what - I accepted I'm still a bloody newbie. I know a lot ABOUT Japanese, but to translate that into Japanese ability, it will take years.
You were damn right when you said you'd get "nowhere fast", because that's how it is with learning a languages. My English still sucks after 20 years, and English ain't exactly far away from German - compared to alien-Japanese, no cognates, different sentence structure, completely different ways to transport ideas.
It's all right. Japanese is my love affair. There have to be bad days, or I wouldn't recognize the highlights when they happen.
頑張ろう！
Not sure if it helps you to hear a list of my personal failures.
You know me still from back in the day, smart.fm - I started out with audio courses, completely ignored the writing systems.
At some point I accepted, but never embraced them. Learning the Kana alone was a PITA for me, and it'll take me forever to learn those Kanji.
I was confident that my pronunciation was rather good, until I was confronted with the truth: my ず too soft, my し too harsh. I intonate words like I'd be from the Kansai area, quite the opposite of how they're being handled in standard Tokyo dialect. Inu instead of iNU, soRA instead of SOra and so on.
I chatted on Facebook and Twitter pretty much right from the start, and the first time I've been humbled in front of my 1500 followers on Twitter was when I said かっこいいだ！ and the girl i chatted with responded with ジジイみたいじゃん.
One time I chatted with some people about some artist. One of my friends added how fashionable that person was, and I answered with 自分の女も可愛いよ！- a pretty macho way to say "yeah, but my girl is cute, too" - while what I actually tried to say way あの女の人自身も可愛いよ. I wondered already what was going on when I received remarks like 羨ましいなあ and 奥さんについて話してるの？ but it was later that I actually got to know what I did there. Needless to say, if there's been a hole, I'd have hid myself there.
I was chatting on Skype with someone and everything made sense. Then with someone else and I wondered if person #1 dumbed down their speech for me, or if person #2 just had their unique way to express herself in a more sophisticated way - or if by chance I just lacked the vocab to get her wordings. Turned out it was coincidence.
I have my Alzheimer moments. The other day, I couldn't come up with 6ヶ月 and a while ago, I wanted to say 天気 but said 狼. I still don't get what I must have been thinking that day.
I occasionally black out while speaking, my mind goes blank and I start to get nervous, because I just completely forgot for no reason how to say something, then tried hard to remember the word while in the process forgetting what I tried to say.
Know what - I accepted I'm still a bloody newbie. I know a lot ABOUT Japanese, but to translate that into Japanese ability, it will take years.
You were damn right when you said you'd get "nowhere fast", because that's how it is with learning a languages. My English still sucks after 20 years, and English ain't exactly far away from German - compared to alien-Japanese, no cognates, different sentence structure, completely different ways to transport ideas.
It's all right. Japanese is my love affair. There have to be bad days, or I wouldn't recognize the highlights when they happen.
頑張ろう！
Is it just me or is there a mem hater out there in Japanese? I seem to be getting thumbs down on mems when they are the only one for the word. They might not be rock star mems, but it just seems a little destructive.
I know they are currently trying to overhaul the mem system to allow for things like deleting and it making a mem private or only allowing thumbs up, but I just wanted to check with what other users experiences were.
I know they are currently trying to overhaul the mem system to allow for things like deleting and it making a mem private or only allowing thumbs up, but I just wanted to check with what other users experiences were.
1 comment
Latest 3 weeks, 3 days ago
Tchael 3 weeks, 3 days ago
Just ignore it. A thumbs up or thumbs down, to me, means very little. I read the mem before passing my own judgement on if it is "good" or "bad".
A mem will differ from person to person as well. For one person it may work great - for another, it may not work at all.
Just ignore it. A thumbs up or thumbs down, to me, means very little. I read the mem before passing my own judgement on if it is "good" or "bad".
A mem will differ from person to person as well. For one person it may work great - for another, it may not work at all.
Sound clips are good in principle, but I feel in this deck they're more distracting than anything, since they only appear on the most basic words, which are few and far between. I'll be going through a huge stack of words only to hear a sudden "何！" or something. Since there doesn't seem to be any way to turn off sound besides clicking the little sound button individually per session, I think the N2 course would be better off without them entirely.
Maybe the solution would be to remove those words from the deck? Anybody studying for the N2 should probably know them by now.
Maybe the solution would be to remove those words from the deck? Anybody studying for the N2 should probably know them by now.
2 comments
Latest 3 weeks, 4 days ago
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
You can turn sound off by clicking on the little speaker icon on the upper side.
Yes, the audio is incomplete - it will take a lot of time to add clips for over 90.000 entries. I've added a few hundred, but that's a mere drop in the ocean :)
You can turn sound off by clicking on the little speaker icon on the upper side.
Yes, the audio is incomplete - it will take a lot of time to add clips for over 90.000 entries. I've added a few hundred, but that's a mere drop in the ocean :)
s0beitelg0t 3 weeks, 4 days ago
I actually enjoy the sounds. It's boring for me to do courses without sounds. I wish they would cover the entire kana instead of just the hiragana.
It helps with pronunciation and also I enjoy that it gives me instant feedback in the form of audio instead of just a form animation.
I actually enjoy the sounds. It's boring for me to do courses without sounds. I wish they would cover the entire kana instead of just the hiragana.
It helps with pronunciation and also I enjoy that it gives me instant feedback in the form of audio instead of just a form animation.
I feel really sad saying this, but would it be possible to delete AlieksieiRakhimov's mems? I think they were created before the kanji field was entered. All of the mems just have the kanji, which is now shown in the kanji field.
Normally I wouldn't think too much of it, but it makes me sad that Alieksiei's mem creator score is now *negative* 206. It doesn't look like they've been using the site recently, and if they come back to a -206 score that would be very disheartening.
http://www.memrise.com/user...
Normally I wouldn't think too much of it, but it makes me sad that Alieksiei's mem creator score is now *negative* 206. It doesn't look like they've been using the site recently, and if they come back to a -206 score that would be very disheartening.
http://www.memrise.com/user...
4 comments
Latest 3 weeks, 6 days ago
jlptbootcamp 3 weeks, 6 days ago
There is no way for moderators to delete mems currently. There is a hot discussion about negative mems going on in the feature request forum that might change that but for now we can't do anything. Ben might be able to clean these out though.
That is a bit of a sad sight to see though :(
There is no way for moderators to delete mems currently. There is a hot discussion about negative mems going on in the feature request forum that might change that but for now we can't do anything. Ben might be able to clean these out though.
That is a bit of a sad sight to see though :(
benwhately 3 weeks, 6 days ago
Thanks for spotting this - I will have a go and see what I can do. It might be a bit fiddly,, but perhaps we can come up with a general solution which might work more broadly than just in this one case.
Best wishes
Ben
Thanks for spotting this - I will have a go and see what I can do. It might be a bit fiddly,, but perhaps we can come up with a general solution which might work more broadly than just in this one case.
Best wishes
Ben
TL-ShadowDrgn 3 weeks, 6 days ago
If you have direct database access, it'd be really easy to just DELETE FROM mems_table WHERE mem_creator='AlieksieiRakhimov'. That wouldn't help his poor thumbs up score though; you'd have to reset that manually too.
If you have direct database access, it'd be really easy to just DELETE FROM mems_table WHERE mem_creator='AlieksieiRakhimov'. That wouldn't help his poor thumbs up score though; you'd have to reset that manually too.
benwhately 3 weeks, 6 days ago
You are quite right - it wouldn't hard at all to do the plain deleting, but there are areas that it would become a bit fiddly to make sure that it doesn't cause any glitches elsewhere. And I don't want to spend too much time solving this individual problem; much better to make a solution that is generally helpful in the kind of situation. That way it can be useful again in future.
Best wishes
Ben
You are quite right - it wouldn't hard at all to do the plain deleting, but there are areas that it would become a bit fiddly to make sure that it doesn't cause any glitches elsewhere. And I don't want to spend too much time solving this individual problem; much better to make a solution that is generally helpful in the kind of situation. That way it can be useful again in future.
Best wishes
Ben
Since there are many word lists that have the Kanji and Hiragana(Non-Kanji, Japanese Reading) reversed, when compared to the Japanese FAQ conventions, I think some lists should be move.
I just now saw that under Topics (Source Language: English) > Japanese, there are 4 sections. They are regular Japanese Vocabulary, Japanese Kanji, Japanese Kana, and, last, Japanese - Kanji Readings.
I will be adding comments including lists that have many words that include these reversed words. Avoiding having them deleted, they should be separated to avoid confusion with dictionary entries that follow the Japanese FAQ conventions.
Can we move them to the Japanese - Kanji Readings Language section?
Here are a couple examples:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
I just now saw that under Topics (Source Language: English) > Japanese, there are 4 sections. They are regular Japanese Vocabulary, Japanese Kanji, Japanese Kana, and, last, Japanese - Kanji Readings.
I will be adding comments including lists that have many words that include these reversed words. Avoiding having them deleted, they should be separated to avoid confusion with dictionary entries that follow the Japanese FAQ conventions.
Can we move them to the Japanese - Kanji Readings Language section?
Here are a couple examples:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
3 comments
Latest 4 weeks ago
phoenixphreak 2 months ago
Memrise,
Maybe I am misunderstanding the importance of having a clear usable and sharable Dictionary Database. If this isn't important to the Memrise team itself, I will get over my obsession with finding mistaken word lists...
But even just today another word list was created and was the top newest wordlist. It too does not follow the conventions laid out in the FAQ.
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
I strongly encourage there be a more clear tutorial requirement for those adding new words/lists to the main Japanese Language section. I'm sure those adding the wordlists are simply mistaken on what would be best for the website, or are using simple spreadsheets they made elsewhere without knowing how it will correspond with the site's information. I think with more clear instruction these contributors will help grow Memrise instead of continue to add confusion.
Memrise,
Maybe I am misunderstanding the importance of having a clear usable and sharable Dictionary Database. If this isn't important to the Memrise team itself, I will get over my obsession with finding mistaken word lists...
But even just today another word list was created and was the top newest wordlist. It too does not follow the conventions laid out in the FAQ.
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
I strongly encourage there be a more clear tutorial requirement for those adding new words/lists to the main Japanese Language section. I'm sure those adding the wordlists are simply mistaken on what would be best for the website, or are using simple spreadsheets they made elsewhere without knowing how it will correspond with the site's information. I think with more clear instruction these contributors will help grow Memrise instead of continue to add confusion.
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
They are currently working on a new wiki-based infrastructure that should make this clearer and easier to control (for us curators/moderators). In the meantime we can move a few of the courses that haven't been moderated yet, but it is still a bit risky.
I tried moving the waseda course and it caused some issues with some words. This is caused by the fact that some of the words in the course had been merged with words in the main dictionary. When I moved the course it took those words with it (and all the usage info, mems, etc...) Obviously this is a very bad thing. Deleting it would also cause issues because there seems to be a decent-sized user base.
Anyway, it seems the new wiki infrastructure will be along shortly and we can move things without causing so much chaos. In the meantime, let's keep a list of what needs to be moved and letting people know their options.
Thanks for starting a topic about it though pheonixphreak!
They are currently working on a new wiki-based infrastructure that should make this clearer and easier to control (for us curators/moderators). In the meantime we can move a few of the courses that haven't been moderated yet, but it is still a bit risky.
I tried moving the waseda course and it caused some issues with some words. This is caused by the fact that some of the words in the course had been merged with words in the main dictionary. When I moved the course it took those words with it (and all the usage info, mems, etc...) Obviously this is a very bad thing. Deleting it would also cause issues because there seems to be a decent-sized user base.
Anyway, it seems the new wiki infrastructure will be along shortly and we can move things without causing so much chaos. In the meantime, let's keep a list of what needs to be moved and letting people know their options.
Thanks for starting a topic about it though pheonixphreak!
cacoethes 4 weeks ago
A few more courses that might need to be edited eventually:
Mix of kanji and kana: http://www.memrise.com/set/...
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
http://www.memrise.com/set/... <-- It looks like phoenix already talked to him and the author needs help fixing his course, but I don't know the best way to help him. :/
Polite form: http://www.memrise.com/set/...
A few more courses that might need to be edited eventually:
Mix of kanji and kana: http://www.memrise.com/set/...
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
http://www.memrise.com/set/... <-- It looks like phoenix already talked to him and the author needs help fixing his course, but I don't know the best way to help him. :/
Polite form: http://www.memrise.com/set/...
So, I was merging double same words (words with the same main entry and same definition) and also sometimes fixing words that were mis-input. This was in the main Japanese section only. By fixing the mis-input words I switched the Kanji and Kana to the correct fields.
I realize now, that until the new Wiki is complete and Japanese-Kanji lists are moved to their own section, I don't want to be editing or merging any words that have the main entry as Kanji. I didn't do too many fixes, and I hope I didn't cause any errors. Though I fear I did with the word おもちゃ （玩具） toy http://www.memrise.com/item....
(Sincerest Apologies, I'm quite embarrassed really) (-_-)
So from here on, I will only correct and clean up the words that have Kana in the Kana section and will wait to clean up other mistakes until the correct time.
I realize now, that until the new Wiki is complete and Japanese-Kanji lists are moved to their own section, I don't want to be editing or merging any words that have the main entry as Kanji. I didn't do too many fixes, and I hope I didn't cause any errors. Though I fear I did with the word おもちゃ （玩具） toy http://www.memrise.com/item....
(Sincerest Apologies, I'm quite embarrassed really) (-_-)
So from here on, I will only correct and clean up the words that have Kana in the Kana section and will wait to clean up other mistakes until the correct time.
3 comments
Latest 1 month ago
jlptbootcamp 1 month ago
@phoeonixphreak I thought as per another discussion that we were merging everything including ones that have been switched around. In the end, they can always download these lists of words and flip the columns then re-up or simply use the original list they had to re-up in the appropriate category.
If we leave mis-formatted words laying around they just end up clogging up the system and they might accidentally get merged anyway. If people get mad we can explain the options they have. We unfortunately need to keep to the conventions.
@phoeonixphreak I thought as per another discussion that we were merging everything including ones that have been switched around. In the end, they can always download these lists of words and flip the columns then re-up or simply use the original list they had to re-up in the appropriate category.
If we leave mis-formatted words laying around they just end up clogging up the system and they might accidentally get merged anyway. If people get mad we can explain the options they have. We unfortunately need to keep to the conventions.
jlptbootcamp 1 month ago
oops, just realized this was a 2 week old post that got pushed to the top. ごめんなさいね！
oops, just realized this was a 2 week old post that got pushed to the top. ごめんなさいね！
This concerns both "Japanese" and "Japanese Kanji". While the courses work great for learning to recognize and read Kanji, i can't help feeling that i don't improve my writing skills (at least for the more complicated Kanji, a few seconds to look at those just isn't enough for me).
I tried using my pen tablet for input instead of just typing everything, the problem is that compounds of complicated kanji take me way too much time to write by hand, so the clock running down is rather annoying.
Is there any way around that (disabling time limits?)?
I tried uploading my own list to check if there are options when creating a list, but i didn't find anything.
Are there future plans to enable character recognition?
I tried using my pen tablet for input instead of just typing everything, the problem is that compounds of complicated kanji take me way too much time to write by hand, so the clock running down is rather annoying.
Is there any way around that (disabling time limits?)?
I tried uploading my own list to check if there are options when creating a list, but i didn't find anything.
Are there future plans to enable character recognition?
2 comments
Latest 1 month ago
benwhately 1 month ago
Thanks for this - an excellent point. We are going to add in some more user-setting very soon. A setting to disable the timer is a possibility to add then. Combining that with the character recognition on your tablet should work ok, shouldn't it? Or do you think that there needs to be a more specific tool?
Thanks and best wishes
Ben
Thanks for this - an excellent point. We are going to add in some more user-setting very soon. A setting to disable the timer is a possibility to add then. Combining that with the character recognition on your tablet should work ok, shouldn't it? Or do you think that there needs to be a more specific tool?
Thanks and best wishes
Ben
carstent 1 month ago
Thanks for your reply!
I am using Windows 7 which provides a decent support for pen tablets, so it should work at least for people like me. Thank you very much!
I don't know how the support is on other operating systems, tho...
Generally, I would very much appreciate a specific tool built into the website, for example a switch that turns the box for entering words into a box that recognizes hand written characters (either with a mouse or a pen tablet). there are some sites out there like skritter for Japanese or Chinese, but i think it would be an awesome function for all kinds of languages without the latin alphabet...
I know this is a pretty large function and character recognition is complicated, all I am saying is that this would be something worth thinking about once everything else is up and running smoothly (after the beta?).
This would, for example, give people the possibility to listen to a sentence and then write it down, testing listening and writing abilities. (I have been wondering, if maybe other languages here provide listening courses. That would be useful even without the possibility of writing by hand...)
Thanks again,
Carsten
Thanks for your reply!
I am using Windows 7 which provides a decent support for pen tablets, so it should work at least for people like me. Thank you very much!
I don't know how the support is on other operating systems, tho...
Generally, I would very much appreciate a specific tool built into the website, for example a switch that turns the box for entering words into a box that recognizes hand written characters (either with a mouse or a pen tablet). there are some sites out there like skritter for Japanese or Chinese, but i think it would be an awesome function for all kinds of languages without the latin alphabet...
I know this is a pretty large function and character recognition is complicated, all I am saying is that this would be something worth thinking about once everything else is up and running smoothly (after the beta?).
This would, for example, give people the possibility to listen to a sentence and then write it down, testing listening and writing abilities. (I have been wondering, if maybe other languages here provide listening courses. That would be useful even without the possibility of writing by hand...)
Thanks again,
Carsten
Just checking but I think this should be the より that is used in comparison right? This word for twist seems pretty rare to be in the N2 list.
If it is simply より for comparison, I'll probably delete it from the list. That's more of grammar thing.
Anyway, here is the word in all its glory:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
If it is simply より for comparison, I'll probably delete it from the list. That's more of grammar thing.
Anyway, here is the word in all its glory:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
3 comments
Latest 1 month ago
ikenaiAndi 1 month ago
The card you just linked lists pronunciation, kanji and part of speech for 縒り, not より、which would be (adv; prt). I'd guess it is intended to be just what it is now.
The N2 isn't exactly a list based on any kind of frequency, it DOES have quite some rare stuff (that's why I keep it for later), but you're right, this one is.. hum, "rare" is an understatement. But I have no idea, maybe it IS supposed to be part of this list, even tho every 10 years someone utters it somewhere in Japan.
The card you just linked lists pronunciation, kanji and part of speech for 縒り, not より、which would be (adv; prt). I'd guess it is intended to be just what it is now.
The N2 isn't exactly a list based on any kind of frequency, it DOES have quite some rare stuff (that's why I keep it for later), but you're right, this one is.. hum, "rare" is an understatement. But I have no idea, maybe it IS supposed to be part of this list, even tho every 10 years someone utters it somewhere in Japan.
jlptbootcamp 1 month ago
I don't know, I just double checked with the lists that are available on the net and didn't see anything that matched up. What I think happened was somewhere along the line somebody mistook this for an actual vocab word and not the grammar point.
I don't know, I just double checked with the lists that are available on the net and didn't see anything that matched up. What I think happened was somewhere along the line somebody mistook this for an actual vocab word and not the grammar point.
ikenaiAndi 1 month ago
At any rate, I'd just keep it. Maybe someone will think "Hey, that's just what I always tried to say" ^__^
It's not wrong, so yeah. N2 has other stuff at a similar level, so I guess it's okay to keep it.
At any rate, I'd just keep it. Maybe someone will think "Hey, that's just what I always tried to say" ^__^
It's not wrong, so yeah. N2 has other stuff at a similar level, so I guess it's okay to keep it.
I found the whole spreadsheet here, thanks to reddit
https://docs.google.com/spr...
Anyone want create the set base on it?
sound file and more detail: http://www.reddit.com/r/Lea...
https://docs.google.com/spr...
Anyone want create the set base on it?
sound file and more detail: http://www.reddit.com/r/Lea...
4 comments
Latest 1 month ago
jlptbootcamp 1 month ago
Umm, it's already been created:
kore course
We are moderating it now to add kanji/parts of speech, but all the words are there.
If the link above doesn't work for you. It is the first course under the featured courses called 'kore' not core. Not sure why that is, it just is. Enjoy!
Umm, it's already been created:
kore course
We are moderating it now to add kanji/parts of speech, but all the words are there.
If the link above doesn't work for you. It is the first course under the featured courses called 'kore' not core. Not sure why that is, it just is. Enjoy!
cacoethes 1 month ago
In that reddit link, someone said:
This is commonly known as "Kore 6K" because it uses iKnow's "Core 6K" word list and sorts it by 2001 Kanji Odyssey's order (aka "2001KO").
I wish we could get that audio. ^^
In that reddit link, someone said:
This is commonly known as "Kore 6K" because it uses iKnow's "Core 6K" word list and sorts it by 2001 Kanji Odyssey's order (aka "2001KO").
I wish we could get that audio. ^^
jlptbootcamp 1 month ago
Thanks for the clarification Cacoethes. Always wondered why it was like that.
Thanks for the clarification Cacoethes. Always wondered why it was like that.
ikenaiAndi 1 month ago
There's also a German version, "Top 6000 Japanisch" here on memrise:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
The list has all the words and Kanji, I'm currently in the process of adding parts of speech. That's not high-priority tho and thus will take some time.
There's also a German version, "Top 6000 Japanisch" here on memrise:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
The list has all the words and Kanji, I'm currently in the process of adding parts of speech. That's not high-priority tho and thus will take some time.
There are a couple words in the N5 course that are _basically_ duplicates, but not technically exactly the same.
For example, there's red (noun) and red(adjective) http://www.memrise.com/item... http://www.memrise.com/item... and the same with yellow.
Does it really make sense to have two different forms of the same word in the wordlist?
For example, there's red (noun) and red(adjective) http://www.memrise.com/item... http://www.memrise.com/item... and the same with yellow.
Does it really make sense to have two different forms of the same word in the wordlist?
2 comments
Latest 1 month ago
jlptbootcamp 1 month ago
I created them that way in the N5 deck because I figured people at the lower level would appreciate the clarification. The reasoning was that since they were beginners it might be useful to practice these as separate words because they are used differently.
I guess I assumed that individuals studying for the N5 level have no prior knowledge of Japanese other than the ability to read kana, which considering it is the first level that seems like a safe bet.
Also, these are typically listed as separate items for most of the major N5 vocab lists. For example, Jonathan Waller's list has them as separate items.
I created them that way in the N5 deck because I figured people at the lower level would appreciate the clarification. The reasoning was that since they were beginners it might be useful to practice these as separate words because they are used differently.
I guess I assumed that individuals studying for the N5 level have no prior knowledge of Japanese other than the ability to read kana, which considering it is the first level that seems like a safe bet.
Also, these are typically listed as separate items for most of the major N5 vocab lists. For example, Jonathan Waller's list has them as separate items.
ikenaiAndi 1 month ago
The (newspaper) Core 6000 frequency list also has both 赤 and 赤い. It also has both readings ゆき and いき for 行き - and I'm not referring to a memrise list here (even though "Kore" (Japanese) and "Top 6000 Japanisch" (Japanisch) are based on that thing).
You're right in that it's basically the same thing, however, the words are different pieces of information.
Following jlptbootcamp's logic, I'd say keep both.
I know I will keep them both in the "Japanese for German speakers" section (Japanisch), because in this case, it makes sense.
The (newspaper) Core 6000 frequency list also has both 赤 and 赤い. It also has both readings ゆき and いき for 行き - and I'm not referring to a memrise list here (even though "Kore" (Japanese) and "Top 6000 Japanisch" (Japanisch) are based on that thing).
You're right in that it's basically the same thing, however, the words are different pieces of information.
Following jlptbootcamp's logic, I'd say keep both.
I know I will keep them both in the "Japanese for German speakers" section (Japanisch), because in this case, it makes sense.
There are a couple words in the N5 course that are _basically_ duplicates, but not technically exactly the same.
For example, there's red (noun) and red(adjective) http://www.memrise.com/item... http://www.memrise.com/item... and the same with yellow.
Does it really make sense to have two different forms of the same word in the wordlist?
For example, there's red (noun) and red(adjective) http://www.memrise.com/item... http://www.memrise.com/item... and the same with yellow.
Does it really make sense to have two different forms of the same word in the wordlist?
0 comments
Right now I'm working on moderating a few courses. I'm jumping around between the big N2 community course, one of the N5 courses (that I'm also using for review), and the JET Programme Beginner Course.
Generally I look at Double Boths (same definition and entry) and merge the appropriate ones. Often I add missing info like parts of speech, then approve them if they look clear. I spend so much time doing that that I haven't focused on just approving 'regular' words. I also haven't moved on to the same definitions or same word sections.
I'm generally skipping any words with Kanji in the Kana entry. Should I begin correcting these (reversing kana and kanji) and then in future moderating sessions merge them in with the 'regular' entries?
I guess my last question could be rephrased as: Are we done moving courses between kanji and other (for courses that haven't just popped up in the last week or so...)?
Generally I look at Double Boths (same definition and entry) and merge the appropriate ones. Often I add missing info like parts of speech, then approve them if they look clear. I spend so much time doing that that I haven't focused on just approving 'regular' words. I also haven't moved on to the same definitions or same word sections.
I'm generally skipping any words with Kanji in the Kana entry. Should I begin correcting these (reversing kana and kanji) and then in future moderating sessions merge them in with the 'regular' entries?
I guess my last question could be rephrased as: Are we done moving courses between kanji and other (for courses that haven't just popped up in the last week or so...)?
6 comments
Latest 1 month, 1 week ago
cacoethes 1 month, 1 week ago
Please don't switch anything with kanji in the kana entry right now.. at least that is my opinion.. Words that were always in the kanji section are randomly getting moved to Japanese. Everything is not quite sorted out yet.
Please don't switch anything with kanji in the kana entry right now.. at least that is my opinion.. Words that were always in the kanji section are randomly getting moved to Japanese. Everything is not quite sorted out yet.
benwhately 1 month, 1 week ago
It sounds like you are doing the right thing at the moment. If you can make a comment on words that are the wrong way around, then that would be good because it is possible that they have moved topics and I would like to get that sorted out. But in general yes, lets say that we are done in moving whole courses around.
Thanks very much,
Ben
It sounds like you are doing the right thing at the moment. If you can make a comment on words that are the wrong way around, then that would be good because it is possible that they have moved topics and I would like to get that sorted out. But in general yes, lets say that we are done in moving whole courses around.
Thanks very much,
Ben
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 1 week ago
What pheonixphreak is talking about is sorting out the words that are only in the 'Japanese' topic. It has become a big nuisance for the moderators to sort through the 'incorrectly' formatted words (with kana and kanji switched so the the kanji is 'Japanese' and the kana is in the kanji/pronunciation field)
In theory pheonixphreak, a lot of the words should be in the WWWJDIC upload, they just need to be merged with the words that are currently floating around in the different sets. These have been automatically approved, so I think first round should involve trying to merge up with that as much as possible before approving other words. Just because it might involve double work. You might put in the part of speech, etc... only to find out later that there is already a WWWJDIC entry that you could have just merged with etc...
Anyway, my current philosophy with the mis-formatted decks is to merge them into the data we already have because there are already words that have probably already been merged (like kana only words). After all, if they want to move the course over to another topic later, they can simply d/l the spreadsheet, switch columns and re-upload it.
The other option is to keep trying to notify each person with a poorly formatted deck and getting them to either delete/move it that way, but seems like a bit of a pain. We could also ask Ben to notify individuals with poorly formatted decks and see if we can get a response that way. The problem right now, as pheonixphreak can attest to, it is very difficult to ascertain which words belong to which decks just from the moderation panel. So, it is hard to know what words to let set and what words need to just be merged.
And letting words set while we wait for responses from the deck owners starts cluttering up the moderation panel in my opinion.
Anyway, I'm not sure what would be the best course of action and get us the cleanest data in the long run. Maybe Ben could weigh in on this one.
One thing is for sure is don't waste your time switching the kana and kanji. There are literally thousands of those in the dictionary. Your best bet is to merge them in the same word or same definition sections to correctly formatted words. I've been doing this with the old N2 deck to clean it up.
What pheonixphreak is talking about is sorting out the words that are only in the 'Japanese' topic. It has become a big nuisance for the moderators to sort through the 'incorrectly' formatted words (with kana and kanji switched so the the kanji is 'Japanese' and the kana is in the kanji/pronunciation field)
In theory pheonixphreak, a lot of the words should be in the WWWJDIC upload, they just need to be merged with the words that are currently floating around in the different sets. These have been automatically approved, so I think first round should involve trying to merge up with that as much as possible before approving other words. Just because it might involve double work. You might put in the part of speech, etc... only to find out later that there is already a WWWJDIC entry that you could have just merged with etc...
Anyway, my current philosophy with the mis-formatted decks is to merge them into the data we already have because there are already words that have probably already been merged (like kana only words). After all, if they want to move the course over to another topic later, they can simply d/l the spreadsheet, switch columns and re-upload it.
The other option is to keep trying to notify each person with a poorly formatted deck and getting them to either delete/move it that way, but seems like a bit of a pain. We could also ask Ben to notify individuals with poorly formatted decks and see if we can get a response that way. The problem right now, as pheonixphreak can attest to, it is very difficult to ascertain which words belong to which decks just from the moderation panel. So, it is hard to know what words to let set and what words need to just be merged.
And letting words set while we wait for responses from the deck owners starts cluttering up the moderation panel in my opinion.
Anyway, I'm not sure what would be the best course of action and get us the cleanest data in the long run. Maybe Ben could weigh in on this one.
One thing is for sure is don't waste your time switching the kana and kanji. There are literally thousands of those in the dictionary. Your best bet is to merge them in the same word or same definition sections to correctly formatted words. I've been doing this with the old N2 deck to clean it up.
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 1 week ago
Okay, so if we aren't moving the courses anymore, maybe it is just best that we merge mis-formatted words into the correctly formatted words.
@pheonixphreak This can be done in the same def/same word sections. One note though, is to double check your work before clicking the merge button. It is incredibly easy to make an irreversible mistake in this section because there are words that might have the same English def, but several different kanji/kana and actually contain different nuances.
With words like that, maybe we can just create a topic for them here and we can suss out if we should differentiate the definitions are not, yeah?
I hope that all makes sense, let me know if it doesn't.
Okay, so if we aren't moving the courses anymore, maybe it is just best that we merge mis-formatted words into the correctly formatted words.
@pheonixphreak This can be done in the same def/same word sections. One note though, is to double check your work before clicking the merge button. It is incredibly easy to make an irreversible mistake in this section because there are words that might have the same English def, but several different kanji/kana and actually contain different nuances.
With words like that, maybe we can just create a topic for them here and we can suss out if we should differentiate the definitions are not, yeah?
I hope that all makes sense, let me know if it doesn't.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
Ok cool. I'll do that too.
Current gameplan:
1) Merge Duplicate Boths (hopefully often into an already approved WWWJDIC word)
2) Merge Kanji (reversed entries) with other same Kanji (reversed entries)
3) Work through Duplicate Words and Duplicate Definitions
I won't reverse the reversed Kanji entries now (there is enough other stuff to do) but I will merge them with others with the same reversal. Eventually we can merge these in with the approved correct-order terms.
Also, I will focus on the JLPT 5 List first. It is almost reviewed as far as main approved words goes. I'll start cracking on the merging same definitions and such next.
Ok cool. I'll do that too.
Current gameplan:
1) Merge Duplicate Boths (hopefully often into an already approved WWWJDIC word)
2) Merge Kanji (reversed entries) with other same Kanji (reversed entries)
3) Work through Duplicate Words and Duplicate Definitions
I won't reverse the reversed Kanji entries now (there is enough other stuff to do) but I will merge them with others with the same reversal. Eventually we can merge these in with the approved correct-order terms.
Also, I will focus on the JLPT 5 List first. It is almost reviewed as far as main approved words goes. I'll start cracking on the merging same definitions and such next.
benwhately 1 month, 1 week ago
I think that this sounds like you have got a good plan. Let me know if there are any specific questions that you need help with.
Thanks!
Ben
I think that this sounds like you have got a good plan. Let me know if there are any specific questions that you need help with.
Thanks!
Ben
I´m wondering how to type the long dash used in some japanese words (katagana). i read on wiki that its called Choon or choonpu, but no idea how to type it with microsoft IME?
1 comment
Latest 1 month, 1 week ago
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
I think you can just use a regular dash (-), but when writing in Japanese it will be longer: (パーティー)
I think you can just use a regular dash (-), but when writing in Japanese it will be longer: (パーティー)
I was about to write a long suggestion for how we could use the pronunciation field to better allow people learning Kanji before the Kana, as many users have expressed their desire for. I am a pretty active user of this site and have even done a little curating and moderating. I say this only to prove that even after 2 1/2 months of using the site and doing all that work, I didn't know you could already choose between Kana and Kanji as the information to learn from.
But this IS already possible. If a user goes into a course link and clicks More Learning Options, they can toggle between Reading and Pronunciation. Reading is the Kana (Hiragana field) and Pronunciation is the Kanji.
The main Japanese Database is messy because many people are entering the Kanji in the Kana field and vice versa. This is unnecessary because they can already choose how they want to learn it. (Please correct me if I am mistaken in any of this)
So my main point now is:
Is it possible to clean up the Japanese Introduction Information (or create a side/top bar that lists this information)? I'm not talking about the FAQ (which cacoethes did a great job of writing and revising). I think there should be a simple explanation someplace obvious for users to quickly know two things:
1- How to choose what to be taught/tested on between Kana and Kanji
2- How to enter in new lists clearly.
The current information on how to type in individual words or upload a list are very precise and accurate, but too wordy (and hidden in the FAQ, right?). This extended explanation is necessary, but above it (and in a much more simple manner) there should be an easy to understand summary.
Thoughts?
But this IS already possible. If a user goes into a course link and clicks More Learning Options, they can toggle between Reading and Pronunciation. Reading is the Kana (Hiragana field) and Pronunciation is the Kanji.
The main Japanese Database is messy because many people are entering the Kanji in the Kana field and vice versa. This is unnecessary because they can already choose how they want to learn it. (Please correct me if I am mistaken in any of this)
So my main point now is:
Is it possible to clean up the Japanese Introduction Information (or create a side/top bar that lists this information)? I'm not talking about the FAQ (which cacoethes did a great job of writing and revising). I think there should be a simple explanation someplace obvious for users to quickly know two things:
1- How to choose what to be taught/tested on between Kana and Kanji
2- How to enter in new lists clearly.
The current information on how to type in individual words or upload a list are very precise and accurate, but too wordy (and hidden in the FAQ, right?). This extended explanation is necessary, but above it (and in a much more simple manner) there should be an easy to understand summary.
Thoughts?
11 comments
Latest 1 month, 1 week ago
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 1 week ago
If you were actually able to SAVE your settings, it would be fine. As is, though, when accessing your words from the water button etc, you just go the straight route.
By the way, I do think that learning the Kana first is actually the way to go. But the Kanji should be properly introduced and shown every time, too.
If you were actually able to SAVE your settings, it would be fine. As is, though, when accessing your words from the water button etc, you just go the straight route.
By the way, I do think that learning the Kana first is actually the way to go. But the Kanji should be properly introduced and shown every time, too.
benwhately 1 month, 1 week ago
This is completely right. We are going to be adding in *persistent* (ie ones that save and don't have to be re-set each learning session) user settings that will help a lot with this. But better FAQs are also crucial; actually, I think that we will make a special section for the "conventions" and then have the FAQs as more general FAQs on how to use the site. That would make more sense.
It would be great to get together more ideas on the key points that need to be explained on the FAQs so that we can put them together.
There is going to be a new course creation tool released very very soon, so that will need new explanation as well, though hopefully it will be more intuitive than the current one.
Best wishes
Ben
This is completely right. We are going to be adding in *persistent* (ie ones that save and don't have to be re-set each learning session) user settings that will help a lot with this. But better FAQs are also crucial; actually, I think that we will make a special section for the "conventions" and then have the FAQs as more general FAQs on how to use the site. That would make more sense.
It would be great to get together more ideas on the key points that need to be explained on the FAQs so that we can put them together.
There is going to be a new course creation tool released very very soon, so that will need new explanation as well, though hopefully it will be more intuitive than the current one.
Best wishes
Ben
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
The very first time a user attempts to learn any words they must click through a short tutorial. This tutorial gives a very brief and colorful introduction to seeds, greenhouses, and gardens.
Could we have a fun introduction like this for list making? Could we make another for learning options?
The very first time a user attempts to learn any words they must click through a short tutorial. This tutorial gives a very brief and colorful introduction to seeds, greenhouses, and gardens.
Could we have a fun introduction like this for list making? Could we make another for learning options?
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 1 week ago
I think that's a good idea phoenixphreak. Do you think it should be a video tut that people can watch? That would be something quick dirty that we could put together and link to.
I think that's a good idea phoenixphreak. Do you think it should be a video tut that people can watch? That would be something quick dirty that we could put together and link to.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
A video would be fine, but a quick few lines like this might be good to start:
In the Japanese section words will be introduced as Kana (usually Hiragana). After your word grows to level X you will have the Kanji introduced with testing of the Kanji only after that.
To jump straight to testing with Kanji, please go to the top of a course you are learning and select 'More learning options', then select 'pronunciation'.
A video would be fine, but a quick few lines like this might be good to start:
In the Japanese section words will be introduced as Kana (usually Hiragana). After your word grows to level X you will have the Kanji introduced with testing of the Kanji only after that.
To jump straight to testing with Kanji, please go to the top of a course you are learning and select 'More learning options', then select 'pronunciation'.
benwhately 1 month, 1 week ago
@phoenixphreak - we clearly need that explanation. Where would be the most obvious place to put it do you think? I can think of several, but not sure where people are the most certain to see it. Do you meant that we should put an extra slide in at the start of your very first learning session in Japanese, explaining this? Like the "garden" explanation? I will will in to how we could do this. It would definitely be a big help I think.
Thanks
Ben
@phoenixphreak - we clearly need that explanation. Where would be the most obvious place to put it do you think? I can think of several, but not sure where people are the most certain to see it. Do you meant that we should put an extra slide in at the start of your very first learning session in Japanese, explaining this? Like the "garden" explanation? I will will in to how we could do this. It would definitely be a big help I think.
Thanks
Ben
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
@benwhately - I think it is best to have that for the first time doing a Japanese course, or if it isn't too annoying (a simple click will move through it), we should have it for every time someone starts a NEW Japanese course.
It might be a little annoying, but how often do people continuously start a new course?
Also, a similar intro page would be useful when someone goes in to either make a new course using the Memrise search set-up or the spreadsheet upload. Again, maybe only each time a brand-new course is made.
Once people know how to properly study Kanji first and correctly find previously introduced words (connecting straight to the moderated data), the whole Japanese section will become more succinct and mems will flow like rivers from the crisp purple mountains in the clouds. Birds will sing in the air, and you know... and so on...
;D
@benwhately - I think it is best to have that for the first time doing a Japanese course, or if it isn't too annoying (a simple click will move through it), we should have it for every time someone starts a NEW Japanese course.
It might be a little annoying, but how often do people continuously start a new course?
Also, a similar intro page would be useful when someone goes in to either make a new course using the Memrise search set-up or the spreadsheet upload. Again, maybe only each time a brand-new course is made.
Once people know how to properly study Kanji first and correctly find previously introduced words (connecting straight to the moderated data), the whole Japanese section will become more succinct and mems will flow like rivers from the crisp purple mountains in the clouds. Birds will sing in the air, and you know... and so on...
;D
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 1 week ago
@pheonixphreak
I think that's a good suggestion, but how about for the second time they create a course/start a course there is a skip button on the first slide. I would find the constant explanation extremely annoying. Ill probably create/start courses about every 3 months or so and I don't really want to see that every time. IMHO
I do like the explanation/copy you wrote though. Very succinct.
@pheonixphreak
I think that's a good suggestion, but how about for the second time they create a course/start a course there is a skip button on the first slide. I would find the constant explanation extremely annoying. Ill probably create/start courses about every 3 months or so and I don't really want to see that every time. IMHO
I do like the explanation/copy you wrote though. Very succinct.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
I was actually envisioning something slightly colorful and simple, but clear. It would be something that could be clicked through quickly, just like the initial welcome new users have for studying in general.
I think having it for every new course (while making one or starting to study one) for the two different types, but they should be easy to click through (one click) so as to not waste people's time or draw complaints.
I was actually envisioning something slightly colorful and simple, but clear. It would be something that could be clicked through quickly, just like the initial welcome new users have for studying in general.
I think having it for every new course (while making one or starting to study one) for the two different types, but they should be easy to click through (one click) so as to not waste people's time or draw complaints.
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 1 week ago
When you say click through (one click), do you mean it is only one window that floats/pops up? and so a skip button would be a bit redundant because you just click close and be done with it?
For the walk through I would think it would be beneficial to have several windows that 'pop' open the menu you can use to select how you can change the settings and explains most of the popular settings not just kanji first (which I assume the pronunciation field in that menu will be renamed as). Is that not what you are envisioning?
When you say click through (one click), do you mean it is only one window that floats/pops up? and so a skip button would be a bit redundant because you just click close and be done with it?
For the walk through I would think it would be beneficial to have several windows that 'pop' open the menu you can use to select how you can change the settings and explains most of the popular settings not just kanji first (which I assume the pronunciation field in that menu will be renamed as). Is that not what you are envisioning?
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
Yeah, a skip button would be redundant. Kinda like how the original welcome screen has the 'next' button to the right (just like the gray/blue button during the test, this new screen and button would just slip in to a newly started Japanese Course.
It shouldn't have anything crazy like 'check here [] to agree with terms and conditions'.
A walk through would be great for making or uploading new lists. But as users would already know about the correct organization of the database, hopefully it won't have to be as drilled in to not upload backwards...
Still, a clear understanding of how to do that too would be great. Way more users study other lists than make their own, so those lists should be made well for all those other people to use.
Yeah, a skip button would be redundant. Kinda like how the original welcome screen has the 'next' button to the right (just like the gray/blue button during the test, this new screen and button would just slip in to a newly started Japanese Course.
It shouldn't have anything crazy like 'check here [] to agree with terms and conditions'.
A walk through would be great for making or uploading new lists. But as users would already know about the correct organization of the database, hopefully it won't have to be as drilled in to not upload backwards...
Still, a clear understanding of how to do that too would be great. Way more users study other lists than make their own, so those lists should be made well for all those other people to use.
I have made a karuta deck in Memory Training section:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
If you read or watched “ちはやふる”, you know what I am talking about. Some learners of Japanese might have heard of 競技かるた elsewhere.
The game is based on a collection of ancient Japanese poetry 百人一首. In order to even try playing the game one has to memorise each of the 100 tanku-poems. Every Japanese child is required to memorise them in school anyway.
The deck is testing the next stage necessary to play competitive karuta: the association between the first few syllables of the top half of each poem (決まり字) and the image of the card with the bottom half. To that end, there are (or will be) some mnemonics.
Each card has an audio of the top half read by a qualified karuta reader. In a multiple choice test it is almost like playing karuta (well, not really ;).
Of course, it is next to impossible to find a partner for playing karuta outside of Japan. I just thought that learners of Japanese might want to browse the deck anyway. In the mems for each card there is full text of the poem (with furigana), its meaning explanation in Japanese and a translation into English.
Enjoy a slice of Japanese culture!
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
If you read or watched “ちはやふる”, you know what I am talking about. Some learners of Japanese might have heard of 競技かるた elsewhere.
The game is based on a collection of ancient Japanese poetry 百人一首. In order to even try playing the game one has to memorise each of the 100 tanku-poems. Every Japanese child is required to memorise them in school anyway.
The deck is testing the next stage necessary to play competitive karuta: the association between the first few syllables of the top half of each poem (決まり字) and the image of the card with the bottom half. To that end, there are (or will be) some mnemonics.
Each card has an audio of the top half read by a qualified karuta reader. In a multiple choice test it is almost like playing karuta (well, not really ;).
Of course, it is next to impossible to find a partner for playing karuta outside of Japan. I just thought that learners of Japanese might want to browse the deck anyway. In the mems for each card there is full text of the poem (with furigana), its meaning explanation in Japanese and a translation into English.
Enjoy a slice of Japanese culture!
2 comments
Latest 1 month, 1 week ago
cacoethes 1 month, 1 week ago
Wow, this is awesome. :) I can tell a lot of work went into this! Thank you ^^ Do you know if there is a way to play this game online against a computer or something?
Wow, this is awesome. :) I can tell a lot of work went into this! Thank you ^^ Do you know if there is a way to play this game online against a computer or something?
Xarienne 1 month, 1 week ago
I have not found any such sites so far, but the actual decks started to appear on e-bay. Now that "Chihayafuru" has been aired and gotten into the Nets there might be a rise in interest outside of Japan. The manga has done it in Japan already.
I have not found any such sites so far, but the actual decks started to appear on e-bay. Now that "Chihayafuru" has been aired and gotten into the Nets there might be a rise in interest outside of Japan. The manga has done it in Japan already.
Does anyone have the problem where they are randomly unable to type during typing tests? It will work fine for a while then suddenly I can't type anything using the IME until I exit the watering session. Also, if I type in the practice typing box, then it *always* screws up, making it so I can't type on the next word. Does anyone know what might be causing this to happen? I switched to Google IME hoping that might fix the problem but it still does it. :(
12 comments
Latest 1 month, 1 week ago
benwhately 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Thank you for spotting this - I have just noticed it as well. I will look into it at once.
Thanks,
Ben
Thank you for spotting this - I have just noticed it as well. I will look into it at once.
Thanks,
Ben
cacoethes 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Thank you. :) I've been thinking this whole time that it was my computer and kept trying different things to fix it lol.
Thank you. :) I've been thinking this whole time that it was my computer and kept trying different things to fix it lol.
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Cacoethes, do you use only the keyboard for input? In other words, to advance to the next question, do you hit enter instead of clicking on the next button?
I get a lot of issues when I do that too.
Cacoethes, do you use only the keyboard for input? In other words, to advance to the next question, do you hit enter instead of clicking on the next button?
I get a lot of issues when I do that too.
benwhately 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Thank you for that info Mac - that should help to track the issue down faster.
Best wishes
Ben
Thank you for that info Mac - that should help to track the issue down faster.
Best wishes
Ben
cacoethes 1 month, 2 weeks ago
I noticed that if I don't "close out" the line underneath the word I am typing by hitting enter, the system will bug. I normally have to hit enter twice. Once to close out the word and once to move on to the next screen. If I am in the middle of typing a word and the timer runs out, it sends me to the next screen before I can hit enter on the IME. This bugs out the IME and I can't type anymore. This is also the reason why I can't get the practice typing to work. If I type in a word in the practice typing box, and then try to hit enter to "close out" the word, Memrise registers that enter and sends me on to the next screen without "closing out" the word, which bugs out the IME.
maybe i'm doing it all wrong...
I noticed that if I don't "close out" the line underneath the word I am typing by hitting enter, the system will bug. I normally have to hit enter twice. Once to close out the word and once to move on to the next screen. If I am in the middle of typing a word and the timer runs out, it sends me to the next screen before I can hit enter on the IME. This bugs out the IME and I can't type anymore. This is also the reason why I can't get the practice typing to work. If I type in a word in the practice typing box, and then try to hit enter to "close out" the word, Memrise registers that enter and sends me on to the next screen without "closing out" the word, which bugs out the IME.
maybe i'm doing it all wrong...
benwhately 1 month, 2 weeks ago
That is also very helpful indeed, thanks! We are working on it right now.
Best wishes
Ben
That is also very helpful indeed, thanks! We are working on it right now.
Best wishes
Ben
dready 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Using Chrome on a Vista and this issue will happen with me too.
I've noticed it's not random; if I get a word "nearly" (not incorrect), then the next time I'm asked to type in a word after the "practice typing" screen, I am unable to type in the box.
I've also noticed that if I click the URL bar, then click the untypable entry box, whatever I typed into the "practice typing" box then appears into the box, which I can then delete and then proceed typing as usual.
Hope this is somewhat clear/helpful.
Using Chrome on a Vista and this issue will happen with me too.
I've noticed it's not random; if I get a word "nearly" (not incorrect), then the next time I'm asked to type in a word after the "practice typing" screen, I am unable to type in the box.
I've also noticed that if I click the URL bar, then click the untypable entry box, whatever I typed into the "practice typing" box then appears into the box, which I can then delete and then proceed typing as usual.
Hope this is somewhat clear/helpful.
Yen 1 month, 2 weeks ago
I can second what dready says, I've experienced the exact same thing, on both Firefox & Chrome on Ubuntu Linux.
So, yes, a workaround for now seems to be clicking in the URL bar.
I can second what dready says, I've experienced the exact same thing, on both Firefox & Chrome on Ubuntu Linux.
So, yes, a workaround for now seems to be clicking in the URL bar.
Yen 1 month, 2 weeks ago
I can second what dready says, I've experienced the exact same thing, on both Firefox & Chrome on Ubuntu Linux.
So, yes, a workaround for now seems to be clicking in the URL bar.
I can second what dready says, I've experienced the exact same thing, on both Firefox & Chrome on Ubuntu Linux.
So, yes, a workaround for now seems to be clicking in the URL bar.
cacoethes 1 month, 1 week ago
Thank you! That is an awesome workaround. Can't believe I didn't try that sooner. :)
Thank you! That is an awesome workaround. Can't believe I didn't try that sooner. :)
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 1 week ago
I didn't have the problem with Firefox on XP. However, Chrome does produce it every time I mistyped and have to enter it after the regular test. I now don't even attempt to type it in correctly but just hit Enter (twice). This also seems to work.
I didn't have the problem with Firefox on XP. However, Chrome does produce it every time I mistyped and have to enter it after the regular test. I now don't even attempt to type it in correctly but just hit Enter (twice). This also seems to work.
I forget what got decided on this, but is everyone in favor of having the kanji be accepted for the answer, even when it is asking for the kana? I thought that was how it was set before right? I think something got switched when the header was changed from Japanese to Kana and now it won't accept kanji for the answer. Is everyone experiencing this?
19 comments
Latest 1 month, 1 week ago
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
I have notice that sometimes I make that mistake and it goes through no problem, and other times it corrects me and requires kana only...
I have notice that sometimes I make that mistake and it goes through no problem, and other times it corrects me and requires kana only...
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
I'd love it if it accepted Kanji. I convert all the time without thinking..
I'd love it if it accepted Kanji. I convert all the time without thinking..
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Yeah phoenix, it's always been flaky, and the recent change in the field name from Japanese to kana didn't affect it. Sometimes the kanji is accepted; sometimes it isn't.
I'd really, really like kanji to always be accepted, even if you're being tested on kana.
Yeah phoenix, it's always been flaky, and the recent change in the field name from Japanese to kana didn't affect it. Sometimes the kanji is accepted; sometimes it isn't.
I'd really, really like kanji to always be accepted, even if you're being tested on kana.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 2 weeks ago
One way we can fix that, maybe, is to also type the kanji as an 'alternative kana' entry. Like the different writing of あまり and あんまり.
One way we can fix that, maybe, is to also type the kanji as an 'alternative kana' entry. Like the different writing of あまり and あんまり.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Do this for 90.000 words and I'll ask you to marry me. In some weird metaphoric sense. :p
Do this for 90.000 words and I'll ask you to marry me. In some weird metaphoric sense. :p
phoenixphreak 1 month, 2 weeks ago
lol,
Well, I think it is more likely that someone with the controls of Memrise will just make entering either the Kana or Kanji fields acceptable. But we can add this for any words we are currently studying...
lol,
Well, I think it is more likely that someone with the controls of Memrise will just make entering either the Kana or Kanji fields acceptable. But we can add this for any words we are currently studying...
phoenixphreak 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Also, that 90,000 words is bloated with many many repeats and incorrect words. I'd seriously guess after the database is fixed (and assuming no more new unique words) it will be around 50,000.
lol
Also, that 90,000 words is bloated with many many repeats and incorrect words. I'd seriously guess after the database is fixed (and assuming no more new unique words) it will be around 50,000.
lol
benwhately 1 month, 2 weeks ago
This should be fixed by us with a fairly simple script. I'm really sorry for the delay in doing it, I will push it through as soon as humanly possible. Thank you for reminding me and I'm really sorry that you had to!
This should be fixed by us with a fairly simple script. I'm really sorry for the delay in doing it, I will push it through as soon as humanly possible. Thank you for reminding me and I'm really sorry that you had to!
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 2 weeks ago
It's really not necessary to apologize.
We all see with our own eyes the progress you've been making and how active you are on the forums.
Can't say the same about a lot of developers.
Just keep it up!
It's really not necessary to apologize.
We all see with our own eyes the progress you've been making and how active you are on the forums.
Can't say the same about a lot of developers.
Just keep it up!
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Yeah, this site gets better every day. We complain, but we still <3.
Yeah, this site gets better every day. We complain, but we still <3.
plaidfluff 1 month, 1 week ago
There are definitely bugs in the kanji/kana thing. Just now it was asking me for the kanji for "to exist" and when I entered 在る, it gave me a "wrong answer" message and told me that the right answer was ある.
There are definitely bugs in the kanji/kana thing. Just now it was asking me for the kanji for "to exist" and when I entered 在る, it gave me a "wrong answer" message and told me that the right answer was ある.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
What list is that from? If you can provide a link, that would be great. It might be that the term is incorrectly entered...
What list is that from? If you can provide a link, that would be great. It might be that the term is incorrectly entered...
plaidfluff 1 month, 1 week ago
Sorry... this one: http://www.memrise.com/set/... (I'm not sure how to get specific items to link to though)
Sorry... this one: http://www.memrise.com/set/... (I'm not sure how to get specific items to link to though)
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 1 week ago
Well actually ある is mostly written in Kana. I see the Kanji once in a blue moon, and you can bet I'm reading Japanese for hours every day.
In such a case, the "Please enter the Kanji" message is kind of misleading.
By the way, if you're gonna fix the "Japanese" topic, please do the same with "Japanisch" - that would be great :)
Well actually ある is mostly written in Kana. I see the Kanji once in a blue moon, and you can bet I'm reading Japanese for hours every day.
In such a case, the "Please enter the Kanji" message is kind of misleading.
By the way, if you're gonna fix the "Japanese" topic, please do the same with "Japanisch" - that would be great :)
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 1 week ago
Gah. Someone put the Kanji in.
I'd just have abolished the Kanji field.
Where nothing exists, nothing can be tested.
Gah. Someone put the Kanji in.
I'd just have abolished the Kanji field.
Where nothing exists, nothing can be tested.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 1 week ago
hmmm. I looked at it but the info for that word is definitely entered correctly. This seems to be more of a regular bug, so hopefully Ben catches it and passes it on to the developers.
hmmm. I looked at it but the info for that word is definitely entered correctly. This seems to be more of a regular bug, so hopefully Ben catches it and passes it on to the developers.
benwhately 1 month, 1 week ago
Thanks for reporting this one - I will definitely look into it for you right away and see what has caused it.
Best wishes
Ben
Thanks for reporting this one - I will definitely look into it for you right away and see what has caused it.
Best wishes
Ben
I'd like some feedback. I don't mind putting in some time to change around dictionary entries where the Japanese and Kanji are reversed. If I switch these columns as I go through various wordlists, putting the Kanji in the correct field... would anyone have a problem?
26 comments
Latest 1 month, 2 weeks ago
benwhately 1 month, 3 weeks ago
One thing to watch when the kanji and Kana are reversed is that the item might have been switched between topics. So it *might* now be in the wrong one. You can check this by looking at what language is written at the top of the screen. If it *is* the wrong topic, then please let me know and I will switch it back right away.
Thanks
Ben
One thing to watch when the kanji and Kana are reversed is that the item might have been switched between topics. So it *might* now be in the wrong one. You can check this by looking at what language is written at the top of the screen. If it *is* the wrong topic, then please let me know and I will switch it back right away.
Thanks
Ben
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
I'm only looking at wordlists still in the main Japanese section. But I'll keep a look out for that.
Is it possible for a wordlist in the main Japanese section to pull some definitions from the Japanese-Kanji section?
I'm only looking at wordlists still in the main Japanese section. But I'll keep a look out for that.
Is it possible for a wordlist in the main Japanese section to pull some definitions from the Japanese-Kanji section?
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Fastest way would be to download the list, load it in your XML viewer, switch the word/pronunciation columns, re-upload and kill the invalid words.
Might as well kill all the other stuff, like definitions, URL, this will automatically be added from the database on import, as it takes existing entries. Or kill the Kanji and let Kana/definition in.
It's also a clean way to do it.
Fastest way would be to download the list, load it in your XML viewer, switch the word/pronunciation columns, re-upload and kill the invalid words.
Might as well kill all the other stuff, like definitions, URL, this will automatically be added from the database on import, as it takes existing entries. Or kill the Kanji and let Kana/definition in.
It's also a clean way to do it.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
True, I could do this to fix different wordlists.
But existing word entries would still be out there floating. Anyone else who makes another list and happens to share those incorrect ones would have problems too. I think it will be easier to fix when the system overhaul is finished, but in the mean time I'll fix the ones I come across as individual entries. I figure if I fix 10-20 a day, that really doesn't take so much time. And other curators can jump in and help, it really wouldn't take so long.
True, I could do this to fix different wordlists.
But existing word entries would still be out there floating. Anyone else who makes another list and happens to share those incorrect ones would have problems too. I think it will be easier to fix when the system overhaul is finished, but in the mean time I'll fix the ones I come across as individual entries. I figure if I fix 10-20 a day, that really doesn't take so much time. And other curators can jump in and help, it really wouldn't take so long.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
You're in for a world of pain.
What you're doing is, you take a word entered in the wrong format, then merge it into an existing, correct word.
Not only is this severe punishment for someone who killed their mom and dad and little doggy too, it also eats up all the time you could spend on valuable educational activities.. like reading comics, watching commercials on TV or learn Japanese. ^^
IMHO, I'd just completely delete all wrong words. Everything entered in the wrong format would go poof.
Yes, that would let some people log in and stare at their lists in horror, but a glance over other lists would give them a hint what might have gone wrong.
Imagine the confusion of someone sitting in front of his good, old list, having to relearn 25% of it, and in the opposite order of what they're used to... not perfect either ;)
If the new Wiki imports all the existing content for further editing, we should remove everything not done properly before that takes place.
You're in for a world of pain.
What you're doing is, you take a word entered in the wrong format, then merge it into an existing, correct word.
Not only is this severe punishment for someone who killed their mom and dad and little doggy too, it also eats up all the time you could spend on valuable educational activities.. like reading comics, watching commercials on TV or learn Japanese. ^^
IMHO, I'd just completely delete all wrong words. Everything entered in the wrong format would go poof.
Yes, that would let some people log in and stare at their lists in horror, but a glance over other lists would give them a hint what might have gone wrong.
Imagine the confusion of someone sitting in front of his good, old list, having to relearn 25% of it, and in the opposite order of what they're used to... not perfect either ;)
If the new Wiki imports all the existing content for further editing, we should remove everything not done properly before that takes place.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Well, I already agree with deleting all the words input incorrectly. But I got a decent amount of backlash for even suggesting such a thing.
I'm not merging anything (especially because I don't know how to merge). I don't mine looking at the meanings as I switch their places, and it helps me review at the same time anyways.
But if we could just delete all the entries that completely ignored the 'rules' in the FAQ, then it would clear up a lot of the Japanese section and make the number of words in it look a lot more realistic.
Well, I already agree with deleting all the words input incorrectly. But I got a decent amount of backlash for even suggesting such a thing.
I'm not merging anything (especially because I don't know how to merge). I don't mine looking at the meanings as I switch their places, and it helps me review at the same time anyways.
But if we could just delete all the entries that completely ignored the 'rules' in the FAQ, then it would clear up a lot of the Japanese section and make the number of words in it look a lot more realistic.
benwhately 1 month, 3 weeks ago
The way that this is planned to work is that the "wiki" will only contain words that have been approved as fitting the conventions and as being correct. The other words will not be deleted, but they will not be available to be added to new wordlists, and it will also be showin which wordlists contain words that have been approved, and which ones don't.
I'm not certain that it takes longer to merge a word that to delete it, does it? The merging process is quite fast and you can do a whole load in one go. Would you like to have a go at it and see how it works for you? Tke a look at this video http://vzaar.com/videos/895052 if you would like to have a try then I can give you the permissions.
Which lists are entered the wrong way around, if you make comments on them then we will try to get them fixed right away. The reason that people tend to put them in the wrong way is that they want to test in other ways. We clearly need to get user settings working for the different test directions so that people don't need to do this. We will do this ASAP.
Thanks
Ben
The way that this is planned to work is that the "wiki" will only contain words that have been approved as fitting the conventions and as being correct. The other words will not be deleted, but they will not be available to be added to new wordlists, and it will also be showin which wordlists contain words that have been approved, and which ones don't.
I'm not certain that it takes longer to merge a word that to delete it, does it? The merging process is quite fast and you can do a whole load in one go. Would you like to have a go at it and see how it works for you? Tke a look at this video http://vzaar.com/videos/895052 if you would like to have a try then I can give you the permissions.
Which lists are entered the wrong way around, if you make comments on them then we will try to get them fixed right away. The reason that people tend to put them in the wrong way is that they want to test in other ways. We clearly need to get user settings working for the different test directions so that people don't need to do this. We will do this ASAP.
Thanks
Ben
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
I've put comments on many of these following lists. But I will list them again here. These are some of the lists with the most entries, all with most of their words input incorrectly.
Problem Japanese Word Lists
Kanji-English (no kana)
1) Waseda f
by shirothekiller
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
229 learners
2)JLPT N2 Vocabulary
by tnaran
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
? learners
3)j-cat
by shirothekiller
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
2 learners
4) GM1 Kanji English
by GrantMorgan2
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
463 learners
Kanji-Kana (no English)
1)GM1 Kanji - Hiragana
by GrantMorgan2
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
501 learners
I've put comments on many of these following lists. But I will list them again here. These are some of the lists with the most entries, all with most of their words input incorrectly.
Problem Japanese Word Lists
Kanji-English (no kana)
1) Waseda f
by shirothekiller
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
229 learners
2)JLPT N2 Vocabulary
by tnaran
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
? learners
3)j-cat
by shirothekiller
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
2 learners
4) GM1 Kanji English
by GrantMorgan2
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
463 learners
Kanji-Kana (no English)
1)GM1 Kanji - Hiragana
by GrantMorgan2
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
501 learners
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 2 weeks ago
This word is mis-categorized:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
@phoenixphreak
Just a FYI, Ben told me to freeze all moving until the new wiki is in place, so that is why I've stopped leaving comments for these bad lists. If we try to move them now we will end up with more orphans like the mis-categorized word above.
Thanks for putting them together though, maybe once the wiki is finished we can go back and ship them out. At present the database is getting really mucked up so it will be good to be able to get a clearer view of what is going on in there.
This word is mis-categorized:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
@phoenixphreak
Just a FYI, Ben told me to freeze all moving until the new wiki is in place, so that is why I've stopped leaving comments for these bad lists. If we try to move them now we will end up with more orphans like the mis-categorized word above.
Thanks for putting them together though, maybe once the wiki is finished we can go back and ship them out. At present the database is getting really mucked up so it will be good to be able to get a clearer view of what is going on in there.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Fair enough. But with some lists (not those listed above) that have some correctly and some incorrectly input words, I have slowly been going through and switching the kana and kanji to the appropriate fields.
If Ben reads this (and I know how busy he is and hasn't had a chance to follow up with me in a few other conversations), I would like to help moderate the Japanese section too, if that would be okay.
Fair enough. But with some lists (not those listed above) that have some correctly and some incorrectly input words, I have slowly been going through and switching the kana and kanji to the appropriate fields.
If Ben reads this (and I know how busy he is and hasn't had a chance to follow up with me in a few other conversations), I would like to help moderate the Japanese section too, if that would be okay.
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 2 weeks ago
I don't think that will be too big of a problem. Ben will probably want to hold off until the new wiki is in place, because I'm guessing the moderating process will change as well. Right now it is rather bare bones and it is hard to have any kind of granular control of anything.
He seems a bit snowed in again at the moment, so we'll have to wait awhile longer.
You can change the order of the kanji/kana, but that is a lot of work, and there is a pretty good chance that we'll move these out once we get better controls, so the words will have to then be switched back. It's best to just let them sit unless you have a lot of time on your hands. I've been rejecting the mis-formatted ones that I see, so they won't appear in the dictionary.
I don't think that will be too big of a problem. Ben will probably want to hold off until the new wiki is in place, because I'm guessing the moderating process will change as well. Right now it is rather bare bones and it is hard to have any kind of granular control of anything.
He seems a bit snowed in again at the moment, so we'll have to wait awhile longer.
You can change the order of the kanji/kana, but that is a lot of work, and there is a pretty good chance that we'll move these out once we get better controls, so the words will have to then be switched back. It's best to just let them sit unless you have a lot of time on your hands. I've been rejecting the mis-formatted ones that I see, so they won't appear in the dictionary.
benwhately 1 month, 2 weeks ago
@jlptbootcamp, I have switched that item back to the Japanese topic. Just so everyone understands what is happening here, when you switch a list from one topic to another, it moves *all* of the items in that course to the new topic. If that course happened to contain a few items that we actually in the correct topic before, then they will now be in the wrong topic. Some topics have different settings for how the words and definitions are displayed, which means that sometimes when items are moved between topic, the fields that the words are displayed in also changes. This can lead to the kanji and kana being flipped.
SO if you do see an item with the fields the wrong way around, it is worth checking forst which topic the item is in (it says this at the top of the screen, on the left). If you then leave a comment I am very happy to shift it back to the right place - it literally takes a second. That seems a better fix than editing it which is a bit more time consuming, and also might mean that it needs to be edited again when the item is returned to its correct topic. Does that make sense? Sorry, it is a bit complicated!
@phoenixphreak, brilliant, you are set up as a curator for the Japanese as well. Thanks!
Ben
@jlptbootcamp, I have switched that item back to the Japanese topic. Just so everyone understands what is happening here, when you switch a list from one topic to another, it moves *all* of the items in that course to the new topic. If that course happened to contain a few items that we actually in the correct topic before, then they will now be in the wrong topic. Some topics have different settings for how the words and definitions are displayed, which means that sometimes when items are moved between topic, the fields that the words are displayed in also changes. This can lead to the kanji and kana being flipped.
SO if you do see an item with the fields the wrong way around, it is worth checking forst which topic the item is in (it says this at the top of the screen, on the left). If you then leave a comment I am very happy to shift it back to the right place - it literally takes a second. That seems a better fix than editing it which is a bit more time consuming, and also might mean that it needs to be edited again when the item is returned to its correct topic. Does that make sense? Sorry, it is a bit complicated!
@phoenixphreak, brilliant, you are set up as a curator for the Japanese as well. Thanks!
Ben
phoenixphreak 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Actually, I think you already had me as a curator. But I'd be willing to be a moderater also so as to help merge duplicates and clean up the Japanese Database. (I would try to stick to lists that only have some errors versus trying to fix the larger problem lists posted above).
Thanks!
Actually, I think you already had me as a curator. But I'd be willing to be a moderater also so as to help merge duplicates and clean up the Japanese Database. (I would try to stick to lists that only have some errors versus trying to fix the larger problem lists posted above).
Thanks!
benwhately 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Well that would be even better! I have now added you as a moderator as well. Thanks!
Ben
Well that would be even better! I have now added you as a moderator as well. Thanks!
Ben
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 2 weeks ago
@pheonixphreak
Would like to just email me? I can try to walk you through the process and give you some tips. mac AT jlptbootcamp DOT com
@pheonixphreak
Would like to just email me? I can try to walk you through the process and give you some tips. mac AT jlptbootcamp DOT com
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month, 2 weeks ago
I think the bigger problem is keeping new errors from tainting already existing lists. Every day I'm coming across misplaced words that used to be correct.
Today's annoyances:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
去る from the Japanisch topic has replaced its equivalent in the Japanese official N2 and qen's N3 lists. It's now permanently stuck as needing to be watered in my garden.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
押し入れ from the Japanese-Kanji topic has replaced its equivalent in geckomayhem's N4 list. Admittedly that list is outdated and I'm going to drop it soon, but it's another example of this problem.
I really hope whatever you guys are working on with the wiki is going to stop this from happening.
I think the bigger problem is keeping new errors from tainting already existing lists. Every day I'm coming across misplaced words that used to be correct.
Today's annoyances:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
去る from the Japanisch topic has replaced its equivalent in the Japanese official N2 and qen's N3 lists. It's now permanently stuck as needing to be watered in my garden.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
押し入れ from the Japanese-Kanji topic has replaced its equivalent in geckomayhem's N4 list. Admittedly that list is outdated and I'm going to drop it soon, but it's another example of this problem.
I really hope whatever you guys are working on with the wiki is going to stop this from happening.
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 2 weeks ago
As @benwhately said earlier these are words that accidently got migrated to a new topic. All you need to do is post a quick comment in the discussion section and he'll move them back.
Basically, right now if you move a course, it will take all the words with it to the new topic. That's why some linked words get taken to the new topic as well. We've put a freeze on moving decks until the new wiki system comes in, but we did move some decks before that and so there are a few orphans.
If you notice one, please just leave a comment for that word (on that words page), and Ben has been really good at switching them back.
As @benwhately said earlier these are words that accidently got migrated to a new topic. All you need to do is post a quick comment in the discussion section and he'll move them back.
Basically, right now if you move a course, it will take all the words with it to the new topic. That's why some linked words get taken to the new topic as well. We've put a freeze on moving decks until the new wiki system comes in, but we did move some decks before that and so there are a few orphans.
If you notice one, please just leave a comment for that word (on that words page), and Ben has been really good at switching them back.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 2 weeks ago
The old "Japanisch" topic is now "Japanisch - Kanji", but internally still /Japanisch.
My old topic is now displayed as "Japanisch", but internally /Japanisch2
AFAIK there shouldn't be an orphan like this in the Japanese topic, because 2 topics have been renamed, and that's all. No interference with the English "Japanese" list
If 去る now shows "verlassen" instead of "leave", something funny happened.
The old "Japanisch" topic is now "Japanisch - Kanji", but internally still /Japanisch.
My old topic is now displayed as "Japanisch", but internally /Japanisch2
AFAIK there shouldn't be an orphan like this in the Japanese topic, because 2 topics have been renamed, and that's all. No interference with the English "Japanese" list
If 去る now shows "verlassen" instead of "leave", something funny happened.
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 2 weeks ago
@Shadowdrgn np! You can call me Mac :) haha
@ikenaiAndi, The word came from this list:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
which must have been in the Japanese topic at one time, and 'leave' got merged with the main dictionary, then it got moved to Japanisch - kanji.
@Shadowdrgn np! You can call me Mac :) haha
@ikenaiAndi, The word came from this list:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
which must have been in the Japanese topic at one time, and 'leave' got merged with the main dictionary, then it got moved to Japanisch - kanji.
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month, 2 weeks ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
This one is somewhat confusing.
目標（もくひょう） means "objective, goal, target"
目印（めじるし）means "mark, sign, landmark" but 目標 is an alternate kanji for it.
I suppose "mark" is a suitable translation for もくひょう but it's confusingly similar to めじるし then. I'd rather see "goal" as the main definition for this card.
めじるし doesn't appear to have a dictionary entry at all, despite being in the JDIC top 20k. I'm sure someone will add it to a list eventually.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
This one is somewhat confusing.
目標（もくひょう） means "objective, goal, target"
目印（めじるし）means "mark, sign, landmark" but 目標 is an alternate kanji for it.
I suppose "mark" is a suitable translation for もくひょう but it's confusingly similar to めじるし then. I'd rather see "goal" as the main definition for this card.
めじるし doesn't appear to have a dictionary entry at all, despite being in the JDIC top 20k. I'm sure someone will add it to a list eventually.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 2 weeks ago
This is one funny incident. 2 different words using the same Kanji.
目標 もくひょう、
目印 めじるし
would be the standard ways to write them though
目標 もくひょう (n) Ziel; Zielscheibe; Angriffsziel; Merkzeichen; Absicht; (P)
目印 めじるし (n,vs) Markierung; Orientierungspunkt; Kennzeichen; Zeichen; Merkmal; (P)
I agree it should be in the database. It's actually pretty common.
This is one funny incident. 2 different words using the same Kanji.
目標 もくひょう、
目印 めじるし
would be the standard ways to write them though
目標 もくひょう (n) Ziel; Zielscheibe; Angriffsziel; Merkzeichen; Absicht; (P)
目印 めじるし (n,vs) Markierung; Orientierungspunkt; Kennzeichen; Zeichen; Merkmal; (P)
I agree it should be in the database. It's actually pretty common.
There is something odd going on with the "corrections" thread, below, which makes it impossible to post any more replies. I am working on fixing this right now, so hopefully we will have it working again soon. Until then I guess you can continue adding replies to this thread, though that might become a bit confusing....
Apologies,
Ben
Apologies,
Ben
1 comment
Latest 1 month, 2 weeks ago
Just to try and make things a little easier as most of us don't use ALL the courses in the Japense section, it would be a lot more effecient for curators to try and correct things and be able to get notified faster if we used a 'Main Errors' section.
Its great that each course has its own 'Comment' section, but we can't spend all day searching through them all.
If you find any changes or corrections that need to be made, please just post with the following:
-Course Name
-Word
-Brief Description
Thanks to everyone, good luck learning and if you have any ideas or thoughts to contribute to better your learning we are more than welcome to hear it! :)
Its great that each course has its own 'Comment' section, but we can't spend all day searching through them all.
If you find any changes or corrections that need to be made, please just post with the following:
-Course Name
-Word
-Brief Description
Thanks to everyone, good luck learning and if you have any ideas or thoughts to contribute to better your learning we are more than welcome to hear it! :)
107 comments
Latest 1 month, 3 weeks ago
TL-ShadowDrgn 3 months ago
I make lots of comments on words, and Ben and jlptbootcamp seem to notice them most of the time. I just kind of assumed that the curators were auto-subscribed to all discussions and got notifications about comments...
I make lots of comments on words, and Ben and jlptbootcamp seem to notice them most of the time. I just kind of assumed that the curators were auto-subscribed to all discussions and got notifications about comments...
TL-ShadowDrgn 3 months ago
I make lots of comments on words, and Ben and jlptbootcamp seem to notice them most of the time. I just kind of assumed that the curators were auto-subscribed to all discussions and got notifications about comments...
I make lots of comments on words, and Ben and jlptbootcamp seem to notice them most of the time. I just kind of assumed that the curators were auto-subscribed to all discussions and got notifications about comments...
Forxnat 3 months ago
Unfortunately as far as I am aware curators dont get notifications about comments, -- I could be missing something -- so I thought this would be just afaster way to convey inforamtion.Ben and jlptbootcamp, have a lot of time and are fully commited curators, when they come across a comment they instantly change it. A lot of effort has been put up on their end to keep the site clean and efficent.I do my best as well to troll through the forums, but I am still at school at the moment and don't have a huge amount of time to dedicate to this site fully. I still make changes when I find them, but as I said before just thought this could be a more effiecent way :)Thanks or the comment though, and I'll ask Ben about notifications of comments for curators.
Unfortunately as far as I am aware curators dont get notifications about comments, -- I could be missing something -- so I thought this would be just afaster way to convey inforamtion.Ben and jlptbootcamp, have a lot of time and are fully commited curators, when they come across a comment they instantly change it. A lot of effort has been put up on their end to keep the site clean and efficent.I do my best as well to troll through the forums, but I am still at school at the moment and don't have a huge amount of time to dedicate to this site fully. I still make changes when I find them, but as I said before just thought this could be a more effiecent way :)Thanks or the comment though, and I'll ask Ben about notifications of comments for curators.
Forxnat 3 months ago
Unfortunately as far as I am aware curators dont get notifications about comments, -- I could be missing something -- so I thought this would be just afaster way to convey inforamtion.Ben and jlptbootcamp, have a lot of time and are fully commited curators, when they come across a comment they instantly change it. A lot of effort has been put up on their end to keep the site clean and efficent.I do my best as well to troll through the forums, but I am still at school at the moment and don't have a huge amount of time to dedicate to this site fully. I still make changes when I find them, but as I said before just thought this could be a more effiecent way :)Thanks or the comment though, and I'll ask Ben about notifications of comments for curators.
Unfortunately as far as I am aware curators dont get notifications about comments, -- I could be missing something -- so I thought this would be just afaster way to convey inforamtion.Ben and jlptbootcamp, have a lot of time and are fully commited curators, when they come across a comment they instantly change it. A lot of effort has been put up on their end to keep the site clean and efficent.I do my best as well to troll through the forums, but I am still at school at the moment and don't have a huge amount of time to dedicate to this site fully. I still make changes when I find them, but as I said before just thought this could be a more effiecent way :)Thanks or the comment though, and I'll ask Ben about notifications of comments for curators.
benwhately 2 months, 4 weeks ago
We are fixing the forum infrastructure at the moment to allow people to follow the changes more easily. What you suggest could be a good fix in the meantime, particularly if you include a link to the item; it is a bit time consuming to search for each item in the dictionary, and that can make the process harder.But we will get the notifications working very soon.ThanksBen
We are fixing the forum infrastructure at the moment to allow people to follow the changes more easily. What you suggest could be a good fix in the meantime, particularly if you include a link to the item; it is a bit time consuming to search for each item in the dictionary, and that can make the process harder.But we will get the notifications working very soon.ThanksBen
benwhately 2 months, 4 weeks ago
We are fixing the forum infrastructure at the moment to allow people to follow the changes more easily. What you suggest could be a good fix in the meantime, particularly if you include a link to the item; it is a bit time consuming to search for each item in the dictionary, and that can make the process harder.But we will get the notifications working very soon.ThanksBen
We are fixing the forum infrastructure at the moment to allow people to follow the changes more easily. What you suggest could be a good fix in the meantime, particularly if you include a link to the item; it is a bit time consuming to search for each item in the dictionary, and that can make the process harder.But we will get the notifications working very soon.ThanksBen
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 4 weeks ago
I'll get this started then, although with a word that doesn't exactly have an error.http://www.memrise.com/item/22...せっけん (節倹) is included in the N5 and N2 memrise courses, and I don't know why. If you check the comments page for the word, I made a lengthy post about it, but to add to that, it seems a lot of people are creating incorrect mems because of the confusion. The word doesn't mean economy in the sense of a national economy or study of economics, it's just an uncommon synonym of 節約 and means "to not be wasteful" or "thrifty."http://www.memrise.com/item/31... (経済) should be in the N5 list instead, imo.The N3 list already has http://www.memrise.com/item/82... - ( 節約) which seems appropriate.
I'll get this started then, although with a word that doesn't exactly have an error.http://www.memrise.com/item/22...せっけん (節倹) is included in the N5 and N2 memrise courses, and I don't know why. If you check the comments page for the word, I made a lengthy post about it, but to add to that, it seems a lot of people are creating incorrect mems because of the confusion. The word doesn't mean economy in the sense of a national economy or study of economics, it's just an uncommon synonym of 節約 and means "to not be wasteful" or "thrifty."http://www.memrise.com/item/31... (経済) should be in the N5 list instead, imo.The N3 list already has http://www.memrise.com/item/82... - ( 節約) which seems appropriate.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 4 weeks ago
I'll get this started then, although with a word that doesn't exactly have an error.http://www.memrise.com/item/22...せっけん (節倹) is included in the N5 and N2 memrise courses, and I don't know why. If you check the comments page for the word, I made a lengthy post about it, but to add to that, it seems a lot of people are creating incorrect mems because of the confusion. The word doesn't mean economy in the sense of a national economy or study of economics, it's just an uncommon synonym of 節約 and means "to not be wasteful" or "thrifty."http://www.memrise.com/item/31... (経済) should be in the N5 list instead, imo.The N3 list already has http://www.memrise.com/item/82... - ( 節約) which seems appropriate.
I'll get this started then, although with a word that doesn't exactly have an error.http://www.memrise.com/item/22...せっけん (節倹) is included in the N5 and N2 memrise courses, and I don't know why. If you check the comments page for the word, I made a lengthy post about it, but to add to that, it seems a lot of people are creating incorrect mems because of the confusion. The word doesn't mean economy in the sense of a national economy or study of economics, it's just an uncommon synonym of 節約 and means "to not be wasteful" or "thrifty."http://www.memrise.com/item/31... (経済) should be in the N5 list instead, imo.The N3 list already has http://www.memrise.com/item/82... - ( 節約) which seems appropriate.
w4llhugg3r 2 months, 3 weeks ago
I'm new here and have only started using this website yesterday, am still a bit confused on how the site works but has already found dozens of words to be spelled wrong (in romaji) and sometimes if I try to be consistent with the wrong spelling I find a word that is written right. XD. Most mistakes are si instead of shi, tu instead of tsu, zi instead of ji. Is there a way to correct these yourself?
I'm new here and have only started using this website yesterday, am still a bit confused on how the site works but has already found dozens of words to be spelled wrong (in romaji) and sometimes if I try to be consistent with the wrong spelling I find a word that is written right. XD. Most mistakes are si instead of shi, tu instead of tsu, zi instead of ji. Is there a way to correct these yourself?
w4llhugg3r 2 months, 3 weeks ago
I'm new here and have only started using this website yesterday, am still a bit confused on how the site works but has already found dozens of words to be spelled wrong (in romaji) and sometimes if I try to be consistent with the wrong spelling I find a word that is written right. XD. Most mistakes are si instead of shi, tu instead of tsu, zi instead of ji. Is there a way to correct these yourself?
I'm new here and have only started using this website yesterday, am still a bit confused on how the site works but has already found dozens of words to be spelled wrong (in romaji) and sometimes if I try to be consistent with the wrong spelling I find a word that is written right. XD. Most mistakes are si instead of shi, tu instead of tsu, zi instead of ji. Is there a way to correct these yourself?
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 3 weeks ago
Hey Ben, I think Disqus is automatically deleting any posts where I include a link. Maybe an overzealous spam filter? I can't think of what else could be going wrong.
Hey Ben, I think Disqus is automatically deleting any posts where I include a link. Maybe an overzealous spam filter? I can't think of what else could be going wrong.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 3 weeks ago
Hey Ben, I think Disqus is automatically deleting any posts where I include a link. Maybe an overzealous spam filter? I can't think of what else could be going wrong.
Hey Ben, I think Disqus is automatically deleting any posts where I include a link. Maybe an overzealous spam filter? I can't think of what else could be going wrong.
benwhately 2 months, 3 weeks ago
Hi, thanks for getting in touch. At the moment there shouldn't be romaji displayed anywhere on the site I don't think - where are you seeing them? or are you typing romaji in response to questions? At the moment the system is only set up to accept kana and kanji answers. There have been an increasing number of people who have been asking to be able to answer in romaji, so we may try to fix this very soon if that would be useful. Apologies for the inconvenience in the meantime. If you need help in typing in Japanese, please take a look at http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... where jlptbootcamp has put some great materials together to help with that.Best wishesBen
Hi, thanks for getting in touch. At the moment there shouldn't be romaji displayed anywhere on the site I don't think - where are you seeing them? or are you typing romaji in response to questions? At the moment the system is only set up to accept kana and kanji answers. There have been an increasing number of people who have been asking to be able to answer in romaji, so we may try to fix this very soon if that would be useful. Apologies for the inconvenience in the meantime. If you need help in typing in Japanese, please take a look at http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... where jlptbootcamp has put some great materials together to help with that.Best wishesBen
benwhately 2 months, 3 weeks ago
Hi, thanks for getting in touch. At the moment there shouldn't be romaji displayed anywhere on the site I don't think - where are you seeing them? or are you typing romaji in response to questions? At the moment the system is only set up to accept kana and kanji answers. There have been an increasing number of people who have been asking to be able to answer in romaji, so we may try to fix this very soon if that would be useful. Apologies for the inconvenience in the meantime. If you need help in typing in Japanese, please take a look at http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... where jlptbootcamp has put some great materials together to help with that.Best wishesBen
Hi, thanks for getting in touch. At the moment there shouldn't be romaji displayed anywhere on the site I don't think - where are you seeing them? or are you typing romaji in response to questions? At the moment the system is only set up to accept kana and kanji answers. There have been an increasing number of people who have been asking to be able to answer in romaji, so we may try to fix this very soon if that would be useful. Apologies for the inconvenience in the meantime. If you need help in typing in Japanese, please take a look at http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... where jlptbootcamp has put some great materials together to help with that.Best wishesBen
w4llhugg3r 2 months, 3 weeks ago
LOL that's odd I've been answering in romaji for everything now XD. I should set up my keyboard then. THANK YOU. That might just fix it all on my part.
LOL that's odd I've been answering in romaji for everything now XD. I should set up my keyboard then. THANK YOU. That might just fix it all on my part.
w4llhugg3r 2 months, 3 weeks ago
LOL that's odd I've been answering in romaji for everything now XD. I should set up my keyboard then. THANK YOU. That might just fix it all on my part.
LOL that's odd I've been answering in romaji for everything now XD. I should set up my keyboard then. THANK YOU. That might just fix it all on my part.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 3 weeks ago
Not an error/correction per se...item/812340/language-38/ 言葉 is in the JLPT N5 list as "language" although it's most commonly used for its second meaning: word, phrase, speech. All of those words have other Japanese equivalents though... but it just seems like 言葉 is too common of a word to just call it "language" and be done with it.げんご（言語）is usually used for "language", but doesn't seem to be in the memrise dictionary at all yet, strangely.
Not an error/correction per se...item/812340/language-38/ 言葉 is in the JLPT N5 list as "language" although it's most commonly used for its second meaning: word, phrase, speech. All of those words have other Japanese equivalents though... but it just seems like 言葉 is too common of a word to just call it "language" and be done with it.げんご（言語）is usually used for "language", but doesn't seem to be in the memrise dictionary at all yet, strangely.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 3 weeks ago
Not an error/correction per se...item/812340/language-38/ 言葉 is in the JLPT N5 list as "language" although it's most commonly used for its second meaning: word, phrase, speech. All of those words have other Japanese equivalents though... but it just seems like 言葉 is too common of a word to just call it "language" and be done with it.げんご（言語）is usually used for "language", but doesn't seem to be in the memrise dictionary at all yet, strangely.
Not an error/correction per se...item/812340/language-38/ 言葉 is in the JLPT N5 list as "language" although it's most commonly used for its second meaning: word, phrase, speech. All of those words have other Japanese equivalents though... but it just seems like 言葉 is too common of a word to just call it "language" and be done with it.げんご（言語）is usually used for "language", but doesn't seem to be in the memrise dictionary at all yet, strangely.
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 2 weeks ago
The JLPT5 set in the "Japanese" section is full of funny errors. Who on earth translates ええ to "Grrr"? I've been trying to fill in blanks with this deck, but if it keeps being bug-ridden like this, I'd rather abandon it and just stick to the JLPT2 set. Someone should take a close look at that some time.
The JLPT5 set in the "Japanese" section is full of funny errors. Who on earth translates ええ to "Grrr"? I've been trying to fill in blanks with this deck, but if it keeps being bug-ridden like this, I'd rather abandon it and just stick to the JLPT2 set. Someone should take a close look at that some time.
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 2 weeks ago
The JLPT5 set in the "Japanese" section is full of funny errors. Who on earth translates ええ to "Grrr"? I've been trying to fill in blanks with this deck, but if it keeps being bug-ridden like this, I'd rather abandon it and just stick to the JLPT2 set. Someone should take a close look at that some time.
The JLPT5 set in the "Japanese" section is full of funny errors. Who on earth translates ええ to "Grrr"? I've been trying to fill in blanks with this deck, but if it keeps being bug-ridden like this, I'd rather abandon it and just stick to the JLPT2 set. Someone should take a close look at that some time.
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 1 week ago
Just letting you know I fixed that infamous "Grrr": http://www.memrise.com/item... was a card appearing quite early in a deck for new learners, means, it has a lot of hits.This error was so stupid, it had to be taken care of, it'd give memrise a bad reputation.Also added a few hundred sound files as I went along and created my "JapanesePod" decks.
Just letting you know I fixed that infamous "Grrr": http://www.memrise.com/item... was a card appearing quite early in a deck for new learners, means, it has a lot of hits.This error was so stupid, it had to be taken care of, it'd give memrise a bad reputation.Also added a few hundred sound files as I went along and created my "JapanesePod" decks.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 1 week ago
You should just delete that card. The N5 set already has ええ in it later on.http://www.memrise.com/item/10...
You should just delete that card. The N5 set already has ええ in it later on.http://www.memrise.com/item/10...
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 1 week ago
All right guys, I went through several hundred words now, while adding 3 decks of my own. I usually correct/clarify definitions. I also always upload audio where applicable, even if an audio already exists (IMHO, it can't hurt to hear the same term from different speakers, that's benefical for listening comprehension). Some are definitely wrong, sometimes a rather rare meaning is put upfront. Making a comment on ALL the corrections done would be overboard. Swapping the unusual definition for the rare definition would be one way to fix it.Putting BOTH definitions up, visible for the learner, is another.IMHO, limiting definitions to 1 might work for German learners of English, English learners of German - but hell, NOT for Japanese, whoever you may be!Remember the あお debate?Yes, あお can be a prefix, meaning "young, unexperienced", but first and foremost, it is the color "blue/green", and there's just nothing to argue. Now, if you intend to introduce the concept of this word being used as prefix, it's fine to put "pref" in "part of speech", but can it hurt to add a short hint like "from: あお = blue/green"? To expect from a learner (and a JLPT N5 deck learner sure has no experience with the subtleties of the Japanese language) they'd be all right rote memorizing it this way and expect it to be usable or even recognizable in speech later on, is hilarious.Limiting the definitions field for Japanese words to 1 is counterproductive and not intuitive. Where more than one meaning has to be understood to get the meaning, connotation and a hint on where and how to use the word, there has to be a second, maybe third definition right in the learner's face.Also, BUG:- Sometimes audio loops through the course of a lesson (be it review or learning). Windows XP, Firefox 10.0.2
All right guys, I went through several hundred words now, while adding 3 decks of my own. I usually correct/clarify definitions. I also always upload audio where applicable, even if an audio already exists (IMHO, it can't hurt to hear the same term from different speakers, that's benefical for listening comprehension). Some are definitely wrong, sometimes a rather rare meaning is put upfront. Making a comment on ALL the corrections done would be overboard. Swapping the unusual definition for the rare definition would be one way to fix it.Putting BOTH definitions up, visible for the learner, is another.IMHO, limiting definitions to 1 might work for German learners of English, English learners of German - but hell, NOT for Japanese, whoever you may be!Remember the あお debate?Yes, あお can be a prefix, meaning "young, unexperienced", but first and foremost, it is the color "blue/green", and there's just nothing to argue. Now, if you intend to introduce the concept of this word being used as prefix, it's fine to put "pref" in "part of speech", but can it hurt to add a short hint like "from: あお = blue/green"? To expect from a learner (and a JLPT N5 deck learner sure has no experience with the subtleties of the Japanese language) they'd be all right rote memorizing it this way and expect it to be usable or even recognizable in speech later on, is hilarious.Limiting the definitions field for Japanese words to 1 is counterproductive and not intuitive. Where more than one meaning has to be understood to get the meaning, connotation and a hint on where and how to use the word, there has to be a second, maybe third definition right in the learner's face.Also, BUG:- Sometimes audio loops through the course of a lesson (be it review or learning). Windows XP, Firefox 10.0.2
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 1 week ago
Since the card is in use, I would remove the term from the deck in question (I'd feel bad doing this). Yeah, it may be double, but that doesn't matter yet IMO. It's just a band-aid fix until Ben does the big cleanup/merging he announced somewhere, earlier.
Since the card is in use, I would remove the term from the deck in question (I'd feel bad doing this). Yeah, it may be double, but that doesn't matter yet IMO. It's just a band-aid fix until Ben does the big cleanup/merging he announced somewhere, earlier.
cacoethes 2 months, 1 week ago
Here's where the problem came in with the あお debate: The JLPT course on Memrise is designed for people planning on taking the JLPT test. It is based off words that were used on previous tests. I agree, I think learning あお as unripe is pretty silly for a true beginner to be learning. That is why I completely avoid any website or study material that says its based off the JLPT. I have absolutely no interest in studying for that test. The word "ao" added as "young, immature" was added as a separate card for the JLPT course because it has such a vastly different meaning than the more common meaning blue (which was already a card.) If you are studying for the JLPT, you will want to study this definition as well as the definition blue because there is a possibility it might show up on the test again.Beginners probably don't care about あお meaning immature. But if they aren't studying for the JLPT, why bother learning from the JLPT course? (They should be learning from courses like the ones you've created - thank you ^.^)
Here's where the problem came in with the あお debate: The JLPT course on Memrise is designed for people planning on taking the JLPT test. It is based off words that were used on previous tests. I agree, I think learning あお as unripe is pretty silly for a true beginner to be learning. That is why I completely avoid any website or study material that says its based off the JLPT. I have absolutely no interest in studying for that test. The word "ao" added as "young, immature" was added as a separate card for the JLPT course because it has such a vastly different meaning than the more common meaning blue (which was already a card.) If you are studying for the JLPT, you will want to study this definition as well as the definition blue because there is a possibility it might show up on the test again.Beginners probably don't care about あお meaning immature. But if they aren't studying for the JLPT, why bother learning from the JLPT course? (They should be learning from courses like the ones you've created - thank you ^.^)
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 1 week ago
In that case, the card itself (the item) is wrong. It should be 青～ instead of 青.This is the case with other items like 人～、～一 and the like.
In that case, the card itself (the item) is wrong. It should be 青～ instead of 青.This is the case with other items like 人～、～一 and the like.
cacoethes 2 months, 1 week ago
Here's the other problem: At one point, I remember reading the rule was "If the new word you are trying to add to the dictionary is SIGNIFICANTLY different than the word that is already in the dictionary, you should make a new card for it." That is why the JLPT list has a card for both "grr" and "yes", because they are so significantly different. I guess a decision needs to be made: Should there only be one card, listed as yes; grr ? Or should there be two cards, each representing the very different meanings? (I have emailed the original creator and asked him to come discuss his opinions.. maybe he will agree that the definition of "grr" will never be used on the JLPT and then we really can just delete it. XD)
Here's the other problem: At one point, I remember reading the rule was "If the new word you are trying to add to the dictionary is SIGNIFICANTLY different than the word that is already in the dictionary, you should make a new card for it." That is why the JLPT list has a card for both "grr" and "yes", because they are so significantly different. I guess a decision needs to be made: Should there only be one card, listed as yes; grr ? Or should there be two cards, each representing the very different meanings? (I have emailed the original creator and asked him to come discuss his opinions.. maybe he will agree that the definition of "grr" will never be used on the JLPT and then we really can just delete it. XD)
jlptbootcamp 2 months, 1 week ago
There were originally tildes in the cards, but we removed them because people were complaining that the system wasn't recognizing them. It's not a commonly typed character and hence is hard to type in quickly as well. I have a Japanese keyboard so I can type the 'Japanese' tilde, but others might be typing the 'roman?' tilde. It can get a bit confusing and so it has been eliminated in favor of the part of speech. In other vocabulary study programs (like StickyStudy) this seems to be the standard (no tilde).The other items should probably have their tildes deleted as well. I haven't encountered them yet though.But what do you think?
There were originally tildes in the cards, but we removed them because people were complaining that the system wasn't recognizing them. It's not a commonly typed character and hence is hard to type in quickly as well. I have a Japanese keyboard so I can type the 'Japanese' tilde, but others might be typing the 'roman?' tilde. It can get a bit confusing and so it has been eliminated in favor of the part of speech. In other vocabulary study programs (like StickyStudy) this seems to be the standard (no tilde).The other items should probably have their tildes deleted as well. I haven't encountered them yet though.But what do you think?
jlptbootcamp 2 months, 1 week ago
The reason for the double cards is that ええ said with a rising intonation means 'grr' or 'what?!?!?' or something like 'Must I?' not 'yes', and these shouldn't be confused obviously. Since the definitions differ by such a significant amount, I decided to create two cards.Often times, this ええ is written as えーー in manga in the like, but again we run into the punctuation debate.Anyway, they are two different senses of the same word, but I can see where this would cause some confusion. Do you think it should be moved up to a higher level? This use of the word is quite common, but I can understand where new learners might get a little confused.
The reason for the double cards is that ええ said with a rising intonation means 'grr' or 'what?!?!?' or something like 'Must I?' not 'yes', and these shouldn't be confused obviously. Since the definitions differ by such a significant amount, I decided to create two cards.Often times, this ええ is written as えーー in manga in the like, but again we run into the punctuation debate.Anyway, they are two different senses of the same word, but I can see where this would cause some confusion. Do you think it should be moved up to a higher level? This use of the word is quite common, but I can understand where new learners might get a little confused.
jlptbootcamp 2 months, 1 week ago
Thanks, fixed it to mean 'word(s)'. That's a bit of an odd mistake, must have happened when we were moderating or something.
Thanks, fixed it to mean 'word(s)'. That's a bit of an odd mistake, must have happened when we were moderating or something.
jlptbootcamp 2 months, 1 week ago
I'm subscribed to a lot, but not auto-subscribed. :)Anyway, I'm listening to this thread now.
I'm subscribed to a lot, but not auto-subscribed. :)Anyway, I'm listening to this thread now.
jlptbootcamp 2 months, 1 week ago
I solved the mystery of せっけん. It should mean 'soap'. To create the master N2 deck we imported all of our words from a deck that was uploaded from a user in the early days of memrise:http://www.memrise.com/set/100...This original deck had two soaps in it, one with kanji, one without. So, something obviously got mixed up during the merge/moderate process causing the one without kanji to get merged into thrift/economy. I changed it to soap, and hopefully sometime over the next couple of weeks these will get merged together again and become just one 'soap'.せっけん meaning 'soap' is an N5 word. It usually doesn't have kanji used with it though.I hope that all makes sense :)Looking around at my resources けいざい seems to be an N4 word.
I solved the mystery of せっけん. It should mean 'soap'. To create the master N2 deck we imported all of our words from a deck that was uploaded from a user in the early days of memrise:http://www.memrise.com/set/100...This original deck had two soaps in it, one with kanji, one without. So, something obviously got mixed up during the merge/moderate process causing the one without kanji to get merged into thrift/economy. I changed it to soap, and hopefully sometime over the next couple of weeks these will get merged together again and become just one 'soap'.せっけん meaning 'soap' is an N5 word. It usually doesn't have kanji used with it though.I hope that all makes sense :)Looking around at my resources けいざい seems to be an N4 word.
jlptbootcamp 2 months, 1 week ago
Using one definition for one word adheres to the minimum information principle:http://www.supermemo.com/artic...Basically, the simpler it is the easier it is going to be to remember. I can say that this works incredibly well for memorizing and, more importantly, recalling massive amounts of vocabulary. If you read anything by Dominic O'Brien, a Grand Memory Champion, he will also attest to this as well. Simpler is better.There is also another aesthetic reason for it as well. The system is designed for single words, so when more are used they could get cut off for certain questions or just look strange.You could add the different senses/clarifications as mems, so people have that information handy though. That way if they see the same word with a different sense they would get a deeper understanding of the word.
Using one definition for one word adheres to the minimum information principle:http://www.supermemo.com/artic...Basically, the simpler it is the easier it is going to be to remember. I can say that this works incredibly well for memorizing and, more importantly, recalling massive amounts of vocabulary. If you read anything by Dominic O'Brien, a Grand Memory Champion, he will also attest to this as well. Simpler is better.There is also another aesthetic reason for it as well. The system is designed for single words, so when more are used they could get cut off for certain questions or just look strange.You could add the different senses/clarifications as mems, so people have that information handy though. That way if they see the same word with a different sense they would get a deeper understanding of the word.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 1 week ago
Mystery solved then. :)None of the mems for the word make sense now, but oh well. Better than having everyone learn a silly word.
Mystery solved then. :)None of the mems for the word make sense now, but oh well. Better than having everyone learn a silly word.
phoenixphreak 2 months, 1 week ago
Here's a very curious messed up word:http://www.memrise.com/item/84...うけつけ or receptionThe information for kanji, English, and Japanese are all mixed!
Here's a very curious messed up word:http://www.memrise.com/item/84...うけつけ or receptionThe information for kanji, English, and Japanese are all mixed!
phoenixphreak 2 months, 1 week ago
I think the tildes are essential. I think the system should be changed just to recognize any type of tilde. That would probably be best across all of Memrise for the sake of every language/situation that needs them.
I think the tildes are essential. I think the system should be changed just to recognize any type of tilde. That would probably be best across all of Memrise for the sake of every language/situation that needs them.
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
It might be easier/faster to memorizte words with a simple definition, but Japanese and English are not congruent. There also don't exist cognates. The words and the concept of words as such are radically different.
To really get the meaning of a word, there have to be a clear definition, and often, one term just doesn't cut it.
That's the problem.. or let me call it tradeoff here. Do you want to learn words quickly or thoroughly? Does it even make sense to memorize something without a full understanding of its meaning?
We don't have to enter the definitions on test. If there's something not clear, adding a second or third definition is not a bad thing.
In the end, you won't memorize the definition anyways, it will become an individual item in your brain, and with a sharp silhouette, it will make more sense and you get "more bang for your buck".
Take for example ぎゅうぎゅう. There's not just the meaning "crammed", but it also represents a sound (cracking leather, door, etc.)
Or take たまたま. While it means "by change", it also means "seldom".
Those are very different concepts, but they ALL add to the meaning of the word. If you want to just say "seldom", you would probably say たまに or 時々 (depending on register of speech), and "by chance" can be expressed with 万一. You only use たまたま if you'd like to emphasize the "rare" fact in たまに, accompanied by a connotation of "by chance".
It will be easier to memorize ONE word with 2 meanings than 2 words (same word, but 2 cards) with each 1 definition.
It might be easier/faster to memorizte words with a simple definition, but Japanese and English are not congruent. There also don't exist cognates. The words and the concept of words as such are radically different.
To really get the meaning of a word, there have to be a clear definition, and often, one term just doesn't cut it.
That's the problem.. or let me call it tradeoff here. Do you want to learn words quickly or thoroughly? Does it even make sense to memorize something without a full understanding of its meaning?
We don't have to enter the definitions on test. If there's something not clear, adding a second or third definition is not a bad thing.
In the end, you won't memorize the definition anyways, it will become an individual item in your brain, and with a sharp silhouette, it will make more sense and you get "more bang for your buck".
Take for example ぎゅうぎゅう. There's not just the meaning "crammed", but it also represents a sound (cracking leather, door, etc.)
Or take たまたま. While it means "by change", it also means "seldom".
Those are very different concepts, but they ALL add to the meaning of the word. If you want to just say "seldom", you would probably say たまに or 時々 (depending on register of speech), and "by chance" can be expressed with 万一. You only use たまたま if you'd like to emphasize the "rare" fact in たまに, accompanied by a connotation of "by chance".
It will be easier to memorize ONE word with 2 meanings than 2 words (same word, but 2 cards) with each 1 definition.
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
I agree, the system should accept ANY kind of tilde. 青～ 青~ is the same thing in the end. You will end up writing 青空 and not 青～空 anyways, it's just a placeholder, to get the "technical stuff" across.
I agree, the system should accept ANY kind of tilde. 青～ 青~ is the same thing in the end. You will end up writing 青空 and not 青～空 anyways, it's just a placeholder, to get the "technical stuff" across.
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
There's no way to mark pitch accent for Japanese here (yet?). So, if you HAVE to add えーー, add it as えーー, because ええ is a "relaxed-polite" version of "yes".
If there's a problem with punctuation again.. the system should be changed to accept -- as well. Or we have to input the -- version as alternatives manually.
With a growing system, however, it will become very difficult to keep track of all this.
There's no way to mark pitch accent for Japanese here (yet?). So, if you HAVE to add えーー, add it as えーー, because ええ is a "relaxed-polite" version of "yes".
If there's a problem with punctuation again.. the system should be changed to accept -- as well. Or we have to input the -- version as alternatives manually.
With a growing system, however, it will become very difficult to keep track of all this.
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
I'd like to add that I find it fun to work with you guys on this. With the positive attitude and constructivism, Japanese will turn out to be a great thing on memrise. I wonder why they didn't set it as "featured course" yet, by the way.
I'd like to add that I find it fun to work with you guys on this. With the positive attitude and constructivism, Japanese will turn out to be a great thing on memrise. I wonder why they didn't set it as "featured course" yet, by the way.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months ago
Hey Andi, now that you're a curator, are you going to change all those これ・この・こっち etc. entries in the N2/N5 lists to be easier to distinguish? I'd really like to see the kanji stripped from them all too, especially since some of them can't even be typed with the Microsoft IME unless you use alternate pronunciations (like かしこ for あそこ).
Hey Andi, now that you're a curator, are you going to change all those これ・この・こっち etc. entries in the N2/N5 lists to be easier to distinguish? I'd really like to see the kanji stripped from them all too, especially since some of them can't even be typed with the Microsoft IME unless you use alternate pronunciations (like かしこ for あそこ).
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
I'll fix them, thanks for reminding me. I had them all ignored, still waiting on "the big overhaul" of the database that also gives us control over our ignored items.
I'll fix them, thanks for reminding me. I had them all ignored, still waiting on "the big overhaul" of the database that also gives us control over our ignored items.
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
I simplified and clarified their descriptions, also removed the Kanji. I'm pretty sure there's more not-so-cool stuff in those lists, please let us know if you find anything.
I simplified and clarified their descriptions, also removed the Kanji. I'm pretty sure there's more not-so-cool stuff in those lists, please let us know if you find anything.
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
I'm currently learning the "Kore" list. I figured the core words sorted by frequency are more effective at my current level.
That means, I'll fix definitions from there for the time being.
I'm a bit reluctant in adding more audio, since there seems to exist a bug where sometimes a sound doesn't start properly, then pop up repeatedly again and again until you finish the current repetition cycle.
The "Kore" deck misses a lot of Kanji. I could fix this, too, but 6000 words is really, really a huge pile. Since the dictionary will be consolidated eventually, all the work could probably be in vain, so I'm not sure if it makes sense to really get to work there.
Any idea what that restructuring would look like, and is there a known ETA?
I'm currently learning the "Kore" list. I figured the core words sorted by frequency are more effective at my current level.
That means, I'll fix definitions from there for the time being.
I'm a bit reluctant in adding more audio, since there seems to exist a bug where sometimes a sound doesn't start properly, then pop up repeatedly again and again until you finish the current repetition cycle.
The "Kore" deck misses a lot of Kanji. I could fix this, too, but 6000 words is really, really a huge pile. Since the dictionary will be consolidated eventually, all the work could probably be in vain, so I'm not sure if it makes sense to really get to work there.
Any idea what that restructuring would look like, and is there a known ETA?
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
Since the forums have moved to a more un-nested format, I'm going to try to start topics for all of the different ideas here. That way we can better keep track of all of these issues.
Since the forums have moved to a more un-nested format, I'm going to try to start topics for all of the different ideas here. That way we can better keep track of all of these issues.
nrkw 2 months ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
the entry for めいし is incorrect. The English definition is 'business card' and not 'noun'?
http://www.memrise.com/item...
the entry for めいし is incorrect. The English definition is 'business card' and not 'noun'?
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
Actually めいし spelled with the kanji 名詞 does mean noun and not business card:
名詞
Actually めいし spelled with the kanji 名詞 does mean noun and not business card:
名詞
nrkw 2 months ago
oh, i didn't see that kanji. the entry that i found was in the Minna no Nihongo set: http://www.memrise.com/set/....
I have the book itself, and this word from Lesson 2 (p18) should be 'business card' 名刺.
oh, i didn't see that kanji. the entry that i found was in the Minna no Nihongo set: http://www.memrise.com/set/....
I have the book itself, and this word from Lesson 2 (p18) should be 'business card' 名刺.
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
Hmm drat, it must have gotten accidentally merged. Sorry about that.
Fixed now, but you'll have to 're-learn' it because it is now a new word in your deck. I couldn't edit the other one because it was linked to several other courses, editing it would have changed the word in all the other courses XO.
Sorry about that, but it's fixed now.
Hmm drat, it must have gotten accidentally merged. Sorry about that.
Fixed now, but you'll have to 're-learn' it because it is now a new word in your deck. I couldn't edit the other one because it was linked to several other courses, editing it would have changed the word in all the other courses XO.
Sorry about that, but it's fixed now.
ardian.krist 2 months ago
I encountered some kind of bug.
I got 2 words ("room" & "spoon") stuck every time I plant new seeds on the JLPT N5 course. No matter how many times I encountered those words when planting new seeds, they won't move to the short term memory section, so I chose to ignore those words.
Just curious, is there any way to fix such issue?
Another question, how can I 'un-ignore' the words that I've ignored? Thanks
I encountered some kind of bug.
I got 2 words ("room" & "spoon") stuck every time I plant new seeds on the JLPT N5 course. No matter how many times I encountered those words when planting new seeds, they won't move to the short term memory section, so I chose to ignore those words.
Just curious, is there any way to fix such issue?
Another question, how can I 'un-ignore' the words that I've ignored? Thanks
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
Sounds like a problem we can't do anything about. Ben has to look into that I suppose. I'm sorry.
Sounds like a problem we can't do anything about. Ben has to look into that I suppose. I'm sorry.
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
In answer to the first question, this is a bug with the database. It usually disappears whenever they clean it up which isn't so often, maybe every 2 months or so? I get the same glitch with a few of my words too. I've had it before and it eventually disappear after the update/clean up.
Unfortunately there is no way to un-ignore yet I think, although they are working on it. But Andi should know more about that, did you manage to un-ignore ええ?
In answer to the first question, this is a bug with the database. It usually disappears whenever they clean it up which isn't so often, maybe every 2 months or so? I get the same glitch with a few of my words too. I've had it before and it eventually disappear after the update/clean up.
Unfortunately there is no way to un-ignore yet I think, although they are working on it. But Andi should know more about that, did you manage to un-ignore ええ?
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
ardian,
I tried some things in the database, and was able to fix mine. Unfortunately since you ignored them you can't test them out :( Let me know next time when this happens and we can try to fix it for you.
ardian,
I tried some things in the database, and was able to fix mine. Unfortunately since you ignored them you can't test them out :( Let me know next time when this happens and we can try to fix it for you.
ardian.krist 2 months ago
That's good news. Well, maybe I have to wait until there's an option to unignore those words. Thanks
That's good news. Well, maybe I have to wait until there's an option to unignore those words. Thanks
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
Nope, I can't unignore ignored words either :/ Sorry I can't help out with this.
I asked Ben if he could manually un-ignore them for me, but he said they'd implement such a feature anyway.
Nope, I can't unignore ignored words either :/ Sorry I can't help out with this.
I asked Ben if he could manually un-ignore them for me, but he said they'd implement such a feature anyway.
Yen 2 months ago
[is this still the correct place to post errors?]
this item (ドア)
http://www.memrise.com/item...
has two audio clips. the default one is incorrect (it says "ふく"). could that audio clip be removed?
[is this still the correct place to post errors?]
this item (ドア)
http://www.memrise.com/item...
has two audio clips. the default one is incorrect (it says "ふく"). could that audio clip be removed?
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
I didn't find a way to remove audio files from a card. If anyone has an idea, please let me know... I know of more examples like this I'd love to fix.
AFAIK, there's no way for me to help out with erroneous audio.
I didn't find a way to remove audio files from a card. If anyone has an idea, please let me know... I know of more examples like this I'd love to fix.
AFAIK, there's no way for me to help out with erroneous audio.
Yen 1 month, 3 weeks ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
has some entries backwards.
it has the hiragana in the kanji entry, and the English in the Hiragana entry. When asked to type in the hiragana, that doesn't work, only the kanji works.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
has some entries backwards.
it has the hiragana in the kanji entry, and the English in the Hiragana entry. When asked to type in the hiragana, that doesn't work, only the kanji works.
benwhately 1 month, 3 weeks ago
@ardian.kirst, it sounds like those items may have been switched to a different topic, and therefore are just not being selected for your learning sessions. Could you send me the links to those words and I will get them fixed for you right away. Sorry for the delay.
@ikenaiAndi, thanks for all of these points, too many to answer in one go! But I'll try to get most of them: If you want to remove audio from a word just leave a comment on the word and I will no be alerted and fix it for you. A proper system will be put in place with the new wiki.
I will see what we can do about accepting the japanese versions of tildes, dashes etc. It should definitely be possible to do it, but it is a question, as always, of fitting it in. I will do me best to push this to the top of the list.
For definitions I totally understand your point that a single definition may not be sufficient. How would it be to display (optionally) all of the alternative meanings when you are learning. At the moment you have to click "show more" each time to see them. But what if you could change a setting and always see them? That way it could you useful for beginners to see just a single definition, because that it less confusing and frightening. Then more advanced learners could choose to see everything. This would give us some flexibility rather than having all the definitions in one field, which would not let individual users separate them out. What do you think?
For the Japanese German topic, which topic are you using? There appear to be three: http://www.memrise.com/lang... it sounds like the field names may be mixed up. I can look into that for you.
@Yen, That entry had been moved to the "Japanese - Kanji readings" topic. I have moved it back to "Japanese", so that should now be fixed. PLease let me know if it is not.
Thanks!
Ben
@ardian.kirst, it sounds like those items may have been switched to a different topic, and therefore are just not being selected for your learning sessions. Could you send me the links to those words and I will get them fixed for you right away. Sorry for the delay.
@ikenaiAndi, thanks for all of these points, too many to answer in one go! But I'll try to get most of them: If you want to remove audio from a word just leave a comment on the word and I will no be alerted and fix it for you. A proper system will be put in place with the new wiki.
I will see what we can do about accepting the japanese versions of tildes, dashes etc. It should definitely be possible to do it, but it is a question, as always, of fitting it in. I will do me best to push this to the top of the list.
For definitions I totally understand your point that a single definition may not be sufficient. How would it be to display (optionally) all of the alternative meanings when you are learning. At the moment you have to click "show more" each time to see them. But what if you could change a setting and always see them? That way it could you useful for beginners to see just a single definition, because that it less confusing and frightening. Then more advanced learners could choose to see everything. This would give us some flexibility rather than having all the definitions in one field, which would not let individual users separate them out. What do you think?
For the Japanese German topic, which topic are you using? There appear to be three: http://www.memrise.com/lang... it sounds like the field names may be mixed up. I can look into that for you.
@Yen, That entry had been moved to the "Japanese - Kanji readings" topic. I have moved it back to "Japanese", so that should now be fixed. PLease let me know if it is not.
Thanks!
Ben
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
The topic I've been building is 和独・ドイツ語と日本語.
It's actually really only a place holder, because the "Japanisch" topic, which should be the logical "Japanese for German students", is full of lists "in the wrong direction" and erroneous definitions.
People seem to just blindly type in stuff from their textbooks without knowing what they're doing.
Personally, I'd merge it with the Japanisch list - or even with the Japanese. It's the same target language after all, and German source should just be a tag on the words.
I'm pretty sure you'll find a way to consolidate all the scattered topics into a better format as soon as you got all the pressing stuff after you. For now, things are all right. Still building up.
_________________________________________________________
Now for the important stuff: Definitions.
_________________________________________________________
I've been translating the 6000 most frequent words according to the frequency list into German and let me tell you... I have NO idea how on earth English native speakers manage to learn the actual meanings of words.
I've checked the English version as well, and the definitions are very vague in many, many cases. It's nigh impossible to get those words without example sentences, as is - or more clear definitions.
I've been very carefully adding definitions for the Japanese -> German list, trying to make the entries unique. That's not really possible due to registers of speech, using different versions of the same word with ultimately the same meaning. 父、父親、父ちゃん、父さん、お父さん、お父様 are all the same thing, for example.
Then there are others with very similar and partially the same meaning, some of them exchangeable, some not (but with a fine line of shifted meaning, sometimes only by nuance). You can say "home" in many ways. うち、家、家庭 and quite some more.
It is impossible to teach these words properly with 1-word-definitions.
I think it would be pretty neat if you could hover your mouse over the one (first) definition to see ALL definitions in a popup. Alas, how mobile-friendly this is, I can't tell.
I suggested somewhere in some other thread an options menu, accessible via pause button (as soon as that's functional and bug-free, which currently isn't always the case).
You would be able to select different things like
- 2-4 fonts or
- your learning focus (word (aka Kana), Kanji ...
because sometimes you rush through a heap of known words and just want to get them out of your way to reach those juicy, fresh words you've started the list for.
Sometimes you can read the Kanji and get the meaning without knowing the word (pronunciation - which in turn makes it impossible for you to use it yourself - bad).
Sometimes you know a word perfectly well and use it day by day but need to learn the Kanji. That's what a focus would be good for.
Also, some people only want to read their L2/L3, others focus more on speaking it and ignore literacy.
One thing I would completely disable is a test on the English (or German) definition. Another is the possibility to input a word in roman letters.
Sounds cruel to all the newbies out there, but let's face it... learning Japanese without the script is futile. You will need at least the Kana, if only to look up vocab.
Another note:
The Kanji should be clearly visible. They're right now very small and in italic font, rendering the display useless. I can hardly read even very well-known everyday Kanji, it's driving me nuts :)
If you intend to test the Kanji in the Japanese topic (which you should and currently do), you need to also introduce them properly and - if you don't do that already - put this "version" on a separate timer. Right now, I see the Kanji in its ... hum ... distorted ;) form a few times, then all of a sudden I'm being tested on them.
By the way:
- "Please enter the Japanese" -> change this to "Please enter the Kana"
- "Please enter the Hiragana" -> change this to "Please enter the Kanji"
- "Please enter the English" -> get rid of this as fast as possible, completely. Purge, then burn it, then drive over it with your car, then burn it again. And then, sink it somewhere deep in the ocean - of another planet.
The topic I've been building is 和独・ドイツ語と日本語.
It's actually really only a place holder, because the "Japanisch" topic, which should be the logical "Japanese for German students", is full of lists "in the wrong direction" and erroneous definitions.
People seem to just blindly type in stuff from their textbooks without knowing what they're doing.
Personally, I'd merge it with the Japanisch list - or even with the Japanese. It's the same target language after all, and German source should just be a tag on the words.
I'm pretty sure you'll find a way to consolidate all the scattered topics into a better format as soon as you got all the pressing stuff after you. For now, things are all right. Still building up.
_________________________________________________________
Now for the important stuff: Definitions.
_________________________________________________________
I've been translating the 6000 most frequent words according to the frequency list into German and let me tell you... I have NO idea how on earth English native speakers manage to learn the actual meanings of words.
I've checked the English version as well, and the definitions are very vague in many, many cases. It's nigh impossible to get those words without example sentences, as is - or more clear definitions.
I've been very carefully adding definitions for the Japanese -> German list, trying to make the entries unique. That's not really possible due to registers of speech, using different versions of the same word with ultimately the same meaning. 父、父親、父ちゃん、父さん、お父さん、お父様 are all the same thing, for example.
Then there are others with very similar and partially the same meaning, some of them exchangeable, some not (but with a fine line of shifted meaning, sometimes only by nuance). You can say "home" in many ways. うち、家、家庭 and quite some more.
It is impossible to teach these words properly with 1-word-definitions.
I think it would be pretty neat if you could hover your mouse over the one (first) definition to see ALL definitions in a popup. Alas, how mobile-friendly this is, I can't tell.
I suggested somewhere in some other thread an options menu, accessible via pause button (as soon as that's functional and bug-free, which currently isn't always the case).
You would be able to select different things like
- 2-4 fonts or
- your learning focus (word (aka Kana), Kanji ...
because sometimes you rush through a heap of known words and just want to get them out of your way to reach those juicy, fresh words you've started the list for.
Sometimes you can read the Kanji and get the meaning without knowing the word (pronunciation - which in turn makes it impossible for you to use it yourself - bad).
Sometimes you know a word perfectly well and use it day by day but need to learn the Kanji. That's what a focus would be good for.
Also, some people only want to read their L2/L3, others focus more on speaking it and ignore literacy.
One thing I would completely disable is a test on the English (or German) definition. Another is the possibility to input a word in roman letters.
Sounds cruel to all the newbies out there, but let's face it... learning Japanese without the script is futile. You will need at least the Kana, if only to look up vocab.
Another note:
The Kanji should be clearly visible. They're right now very small and in italic font, rendering the display useless. I can hardly read even very well-known everyday Kanji, it's driving me nuts :)
If you intend to test the Kanji in the Japanese topic (which you should and currently do), you need to also introduce them properly and - if you don't do that already - put this "version" on a separate timer. Right now, I see the Kanji in its ... hum ... distorted ;) form a few times, then all of a sudden I'm being tested on them.
By the way:
- "Please enter the Japanese" -> change this to "Please enter the Kana"
- "Please enter the Hiragana" -> change this to "Please enter the Kanji"
- "Please enter the English" -> get rid of this as fast as possible, completely. Purge, then burn it, then drive over it with your car, then burn it again. And then, sink it somewhere deep in the ocean - of another planet.
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month, 3 weeks ago
http://www.memrise.com/item...
This has an incorrect English definition, but it's only used in qen's N3 list. However, that same list has another entry with the same word, except it's correct. This one should probably just be removed.
Andi: I actually wrote a Stylish script to make the kanji field bigger and not in italics. It also changes almost all the fonts on the site to versions of Mincho. You can download the extension for Firefox/Chrome and check out the script here: http://userstyles.org/style... Feel free to put in your own fonts, sizes, whatever.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
This has an incorrect English definition, but it's only used in qen's N3 list. However, that same list has another entry with the same word, except it's correct. This one should probably just be removed.
Andi: I actually wrote a Stylish script to make the kanji field bigger and not in italics. It also changes almost all the fonts on the site to versions of Mincho. You can download the extension for Firefox/Chrome and check out the script here: http://userstyles.org/style... Feel free to put in your own fonts, sizes, whatever.
benwhately 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Thanks for this.
I think that it is fair to assume that the topics with different source languages are going to be kept separate for the foreseeable future: making wiktionaries with multiple source languages is a complex task that would result in many more queries when constructing learning sessions, which would slow down loading times. There would be some benefits, but I don't think that there would be enough. So I don't think that you should think of the Japanese for Germans topic as being a placeholder.
If we were to put your lists into the Japanisch topic, then would it actually matter that there were other lists that were entered wrongly in there as well? Alternatively if there is really nothing of use in that topic then I could hide it from the page of topics for German speakers learning Japanese, and just keep you one, possibly renamed to "Japanisch". Would that work?
When you ask for a rollover to see all of the definitions of a word, is this during testing or during learning?
With your example of many Japanese words that translate to the same thing, I am not totally sure I understand what the issue is; are you wanting to write a definition that distinguishes between each of the different Japanese words? Is this necessary? Couldn't the nuance and shade of meaning be explained through sample sentences and mems? Or am I missing something?
The test on typing in English should never happen on the Japanese topic or on your topic for Germans learning Japanese. When has this happened? There is clearly something odd going on because you should also never see a test that asks for "Hiragana" in any of the topics - that isn't even there as a field name in any of those topic names, so I have no idea how that has got in. Could you send me some examples of when this happens. IT sounds like some items must have got transferred to another topic, but I don't know which topic without seeing the items.
At the moment the system is not set up to accept typing in romaji, although we do get a lot of requests from people to add in that functionality: for example, people who are using work computers that don't have Asian fonts installed, and can't install them. We will probably add this function in, but not immediately.
Agreed that the kanji should be shown larger and should be introduced properly before testing. We will work on how to do this. The Kanji is scheduled separately, so that correct answers on kana don't affect when you will be tested on Kanji. Is that what you mean?
Just to re-iterate, we clearly need to introduce the user settings that let you choose how you are tested. This is essential as people at different skill levels require different areas of focus. We will do this soon.
I have changed the field name in the main Japanese topic to "Kana" rather than "Japanese", so it should now ask for that. I also changed the field names on your topic. Let me know if I can do anything else to help with that.
Best wishes
Ben
Thanks for this.
I think that it is fair to assume that the topics with different source languages are going to be kept separate for the foreseeable future: making wiktionaries with multiple source languages is a complex task that would result in many more queries when constructing learning sessions, which would slow down loading times. There would be some benefits, but I don't think that there would be enough. So I don't think that you should think of the Japanese for Germans topic as being a placeholder.
If we were to put your lists into the Japanisch topic, then would it actually matter that there were other lists that were entered wrongly in there as well? Alternatively if there is really nothing of use in that topic then I could hide it from the page of topics for German speakers learning Japanese, and just keep you one, possibly renamed to "Japanisch". Would that work?
When you ask for a rollover to see all of the definitions of a word, is this during testing or during learning?
With your example of many Japanese words that translate to the same thing, I am not totally sure I understand what the issue is; are you wanting to write a definition that distinguishes between each of the different Japanese words? Is this necessary? Couldn't the nuance and shade of meaning be explained through sample sentences and mems? Or am I missing something?
The test on typing in English should never happen on the Japanese topic or on your topic for Germans learning Japanese. When has this happened? There is clearly something odd going on because you should also never see a test that asks for "Hiragana" in any of the topics - that isn't even there as a field name in any of those topic names, so I have no idea how that has got in. Could you send me some examples of when this happens. IT sounds like some items must have got transferred to another topic, but I don't know which topic without seeing the items.
At the moment the system is not set up to accept typing in romaji, although we do get a lot of requests from people to add in that functionality: for example, people who are using work computers that don't have Asian fonts installed, and can't install them. We will probably add this function in, but not immediately.
Agreed that the kanji should be shown larger and should be introduced properly before testing. We will work on how to do this. The Kanji is scheduled separately, so that correct answers on kana don't affect when you will be tested on Kanji. Is that what you mean?
Just to re-iterate, we clearly need to introduce the user settings that let you choose how you are tested. This is essential as people at different skill levels require different areas of focus. We will do this soon.
I have changed the field name in the main Japanese topic to "Kana" rather than "Japanese", so it should now ask for that. I also changed the field names on your topic. Let me know if I can do anything else to help with that.
Best wishes
Ben
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
@Ben:
The test on English happened when I did "Japanese". The test on the Kana took place when I had 静か (word list was "Kore" or "N2, not sure right now - I put these lists on ice for now due to no time.. translating eats it up completely).
___________________________________________________________
What I mean was, it is not possible to make unique definitions when you have 20 words with the same meaning, of which 4 are unique, with several offspring (of register of speech).
The fact that you can say "father" in 5 or 6 ways is in itself not the problem, you can just put in the other (more or less polite) versions as alternatives.
In above example, the 父親 didn't perfectly fit in though. This one also means "father", but more in a "legal guardian" way.
IMHO the best solution would be a script that takes example sentences from tatoeba.org - ANKI has a plugin that does exactly this.
Just code it to get one randomly instead of showing them all, and you got the "example sentence" problem out of your way.
Why would you want to try to get sentences for some 100.000 words for words in a lot of languages if there's already a free community driven project doing exactly this, supporting especially projects like ANKI or memrise?
Their lists are also freely downloadable, if you want to avoid online queries all the time.
___________________________________________________________
- On learning, all definitions should be shown.
- On testing, only the first definition, plus the rollover.
I usually pick 2 or 3 of the definitions while learning a word and add other meanings to this while reviewing words, to deepen my understanding. Much more in-depth learning will later take place through immersion, but before you can pick up a word in context and really make sense of it, at least some degree of understanding has to be there.
- To get even the basic meaning of a word down is not easily done with 1 definition.
- To discriminate words with one of their definitions being the same is impossible.
There do exist some 20 different words which all include "theory" as part of their meaning. "money" or "work" or "attendance" would also be pretty common as a meaning, so you can never be sure which word to enter ... a rollover on test is a must.
Example sentences could be shown after correctly entering a word.
___________________________________________________________
Merging my topic NOW means that I can't import anymore, because I'd run the risk of adopting these wrong words.
I'm around 4600/6000 in my list and should be done by the weekend. If you merge both topics next week, it should be safe.
When you merge them, please make me a curator for that topic. I'll see what I can do to fix that whole thing.
I will also have to add "parts of speech" for thousands of words. This will take time, but by then, the list as such, and with it the words are in the database and it's only a matter of time. It's also a minor problem, as German doesn't necessarily need them if the definitions are done properly (i.e. "heilen" vs. "geheilt werden", also German handles adverbs 100% like adjectives, we don't use a postposition like ~ly).
Here's the deal with "Japanisch":
Not all of those words are seriously flawed; But textbooks sometimes only deliver the meanings of a word that are necessary to get them in context of the dialogues and/or exercises:
As far as I can tell, all the "Japanisch im Sauseschritt" lists only offer half of the meanings.
Most of the stuff in "Japanisch" is in the wrong order: Kanji as "word", Hiragana as "pronunciation".
This would actually be correct! Because the Kana DO represent the pronunciation. But it's technically wrong on memrise, and thus the lists work differently than intended. They teach the Kanji first, the words as such later, which is opposite from how the Japanese topic handles it - and I think "Japanisch" should resemble "Japanese" to have certain standards.
Fun fact: A Japanese friend asked me why the deck she uploaded would be "in the wrong order". I explained the technical problem behind this to her.
___________________________________________________________
@Shadow Dragon:
Thanks very much for this! :) I downloaded it. Gonna test it out when I'm back ;)
@Ben:
The test on English happened when I did "Japanese". The test on the Kana took place when I had 静か (word list was "Kore" or "N2, not sure right now - I put these lists on ice for now due to no time.. translating eats it up completely).
___________________________________________________________
What I mean was, it is not possible to make unique definitions when you have 20 words with the same meaning, of which 4 are unique, with several offspring (of register of speech).
The fact that you can say "father" in 5 or 6 ways is in itself not the problem, you can just put in the other (more or less polite) versions as alternatives.
In above example, the 父親 didn't perfectly fit in though. This one also means "father", but more in a "legal guardian" way.
IMHO the best solution would be a script that takes example sentences from tatoeba.org - ANKI has a plugin that does exactly this.
Just code it to get one randomly instead of showing them all, and you got the "example sentence" problem out of your way.
Why would you want to try to get sentences for some 100.000 words for words in a lot of languages if there's already a free community driven project doing exactly this, supporting especially projects like ANKI or memrise?
Their lists are also freely downloadable, if you want to avoid online queries all the time.
___________________________________________________________
- On learning, all definitions should be shown.
- On testing, only the first definition, plus the rollover.
I usually pick 2 or 3 of the definitions while learning a word and add other meanings to this while reviewing words, to deepen my understanding. Much more in-depth learning will later take place through immersion, but before you can pick up a word in context and really make sense of it, at least some degree of understanding has to be there.
- To get even the basic meaning of a word down is not easily done with 1 definition.
- To discriminate words with one of their definitions being the same is impossible.
There do exist some 20 different words which all include "theory" as part of their meaning. "money" or "work" or "attendance" would also be pretty common as a meaning, so you can never be sure which word to enter ... a rollover on test is a must.
Example sentences could be shown after correctly entering a word.
___________________________________________________________
Merging my topic NOW means that I can't import anymore, because I'd run the risk of adopting these wrong words.
I'm around 4600/6000 in my list and should be done by the weekend. If you merge both topics next week, it should be safe.
When you merge them, please make me a curator for that topic. I'll see what I can do to fix that whole thing.
I will also have to add "parts of speech" for thousands of words. This will take time, but by then, the list as such, and with it the words are in the database and it's only a matter of time. It's also a minor problem, as German doesn't necessarily need them if the definitions are done properly (i.e. "heilen" vs. "geheilt werden", also German handles adverbs 100% like adjectives, we don't use a postposition like ~ly).
Here's the deal with "Japanisch":
Not all of those words are seriously flawed; But textbooks sometimes only deliver the meanings of a word that are necessary to get them in context of the dialogues and/or exercises:
As far as I can tell, all the "Japanisch im Sauseschritt" lists only offer half of the meanings.
Most of the stuff in "Japanisch" is in the wrong order: Kanji as "word", Hiragana as "pronunciation".
This would actually be correct! Because the Kana DO represent the pronunciation. But it's technically wrong on memrise, and thus the lists work differently than intended. They teach the Kanji first, the words as such later, which is opposite from how the Japanese topic handles it - and I think "Japanisch" should resemble "Japanese" to have certain standards.
Fun fact: A Japanese friend asked me why the deck she uploaded would be "in the wrong order". I explained the technical problem behind this to her.
___________________________________________________________
@Shadow Dragon:
Thanks very much for this! :) I downloaded it. Gonna test it out when I'm back ;)
nrkw 1 month, 3 weeks ago
In the Minna no nihongo set: http://www.memrise.com/set/...
なん should be 'what' and not 'difficulty'
あまり should be 'not very' and not 'remainder'
These are the definitions from the actual book.
Also, a question - under the description of this set, it says "All the vocab from Minna no nihongo I & II", but it's not all the vocab at all. Is it possible to add vocab from this book to the set?
http://www.memrise.com/cave...
Or, am I allowed to make a new 'Minna no nihongo I' set containing truly ALL the vocab, in the book order? I'm currently studying this book for school, and it would be useful if all the words were there in the correct order.
In the Minna no nihongo set: http://www.memrise.com/set/...
なん should be 'what' and not 'difficulty'
あまり should be 'not very' and not 'remainder'
These are the definitions from the actual book.
Also, a question - under the description of this set, it says "All the vocab from Minna no nihongo I & II", but it's not all the vocab at all. Is it possible to add vocab from this book to the set?
http://www.memrise.com/cave...
Or, am I allowed to make a new 'Minna no nihongo I' set containing truly ALL the vocab, in the book order? I'm currently studying this book for school, and it would be useful if all the words were there in the correct order.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Wow Andi! You rock! That is a lot of hard work, but you should know we appreciate it! Thanks for all your feedback too. I hope I can be half as helpful!
Wow Andi! You rock! That is a lot of hard work, but you should know we appreciate it! Thanks for all your feedback too. I hope I can be half as helpful!
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Oh and.. if you can set "show all definitions by default" in your personal learning options, this would probably be a great solution for this as well!
Oh and.. if you can set "show all definitions by default" in your personal learning options, this would probably be a great solution for this as well!
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
I forgot to mention the roman-letter-problem:
There exist various versions of Rômaji-Input. The usual Hepburn-style differs greatly from the official one by the Japanese government, taught at schools there.
Then there are countless custom romanizations, created for textbooks and the like.
It'll be hard to find and incorporate them all. Themost common in the west would be Hepburn, however.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...
I forgot to mention the roman-letter-problem:
There exist various versions of Rômaji-Input. The usual Hepburn-style differs greatly from the official one by the Japanese government, taught at schools there.
Then there are countless custom romanizations, created for textbooks and the like.
It'll be hard to find and incorporate them all. Themost common in the west would be Hepburn, however.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Nah, I really love memrise. It really works, and the last time I had this feeling was when smart.fm was still there.
Never really got ANKI work for me ;)
If I can contribute here, it's a great thing. We all profit from this :)
Nah, I really love memrise. It really works, and the last time I had this feeling was when smart.fm was still there.
Never really got ANKI work for me ;)
If I can contribute here, it's a great thing. We all profit from this :)
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
@nrkw: Go ahead and upload your own list, too. There's no rule on naming AFAIK. Guess it goes without saying you don't use something offending or stuff like that ^^
@nrkw: Go ahead and upload your own list, too. There's no rule on naming AFAIK. Guess it goes without saying you don't use something offending or stuff like that ^^
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
@nrkw - I will try to go fix those ones right now.
There are two main ways to fix things. If the list is yours, or you input the terms and they haven't been approved yet for the official database, you can edit them yourself. Or you can be a curator. I'm sure Ben will make you one as soon as you ask, if you want to be.
The other option, if the first list is really really off, is to download that list, edit and add to it in it's .xml form, then reupload it as a new list like you suggested.
@nrkw - I will try to go fix those ones right now.
There are two main ways to fix things. If the list is yours, or you input the terms and they haven't been approved yet for the official database, you can edit them yourself. Or you can be a curator. I'm sure Ben will make you one as soon as you ask, if you want to be.
The other option, if the first list is really really off, is to download that list, edit and add to it in it's .xml form, then reupload it as a new list like you suggested.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
BTW, The なん connected to the Minna-no-Nihongo word list is correct with it's Kanji 難 and English. Should it be removed from this list and have the other なん, 何, added instead?
BTW, The なん connected to the Minna-no-Nihongo word list is correct with it's Kanji 難 and English. Should it be removed from this list and have the other なん, 何, added instead?
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Actually, same thing with あまり. When the person made that list, the chosen Hiragana matched up with a different あまり. I can't fix these two word entries because they aren't actually wrong. But I can delete them from that list and add in the other なん and あまり which have different kanji and different meanings...
Actually, same thing with あまり. When the person made that list, the chosen Hiragana matched up with a different あまり. I can't fix these two word entries because they aren't actually wrong. But I can delete them from that list and add in the other なん and あまり which have different kanji and different meanings...
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
or don't remove any but add those two. this way nobody will feel let down, because everyone gains 2 new vocab items. what do you think?
or don't remove any but add those two. this way nobody will feel let down, because everyone gains 2 new vocab items. what do you think?
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
I don't actually study that wordlist, but I could see it being annoying to have words on a wordlist that don't match the book you are studying. A couple of the lists I made are meant to help compliment, and really match, the book(s) as people progress through them. Those two other meanings also could cause short-term confusion until the kanji level is reached.
I don't actually study that wordlist, but I could see it being annoying to have words on a wordlist that don't match the book you are studying. A couple of the lists I made are meant to help compliment, and really match, the book(s) as people progress through them. Those two other meanings also could cause short-term confusion until the kanji level is reached.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
True, probably doesn't make much sense to add material not covered in the books the list is supposed to support.
True, probably doesn't make much sense to add material not covered in the books the list is supposed to support.
benwhately 1 month, 3 weeks ago
@IkenaiAndi, let me know if you are ever asked to type the English again - it certainly shouldn't happen, so if you can give me more details I will get it fixed. Likewise the Hiragana.
We have been considering Tatoeba for a long time; we have nearly implemented it a couple of times, but always held back at the last moment. The thing that has always held us back is that I just don't think that the sentences are very interesting or engaging. They are just completely random as far as I can see. Generating huge numbers of sample sentences is not in fact a terribly difficult thing to do; generating good, engaging sentences that people are interested to learn and that show the different uses of words in a rich and enlightening way is really really hard. And I am not *convinced* that tatoeba has managed to do it yet (this is my personal opinion, there are others on the team who disagree with me on that). I want to be sure that we can create something really powerful and engaging with sentences, rather than work with a resource that I am not happy with. I am also worried that if we integrate that content it will then make it much harder for us to implement much more interesting and engaging content later on; it might end up getting in the way and hobbling our developments. I realise that this is annoying because you would like to have *something* available right now, but we have got to aim for getting something really really good in the slightly longer term. We are testing a variety of methods at the moment and will hopefully get something working in the next few weeks.
Would you be suggesting that we should test from the sample sentences taken from tatoeba, or that they should just be displayed as examples?
Thank you as always for your feedback and for your contributions to the wikis. They are massively appreciated. I will hold off on merging your topic in then until you have finished adding the rest of those words. We are soon going to have a test version of a new wordlist creation tool working, and if you had a minute to give that a try while you are adding words to your set, that might help speed things up for you - and I would love to hear your thoughts on it!
Thanks
Ben
@IkenaiAndi, let me know if you are ever asked to type the English again - it certainly shouldn't happen, so if you can give me more details I will get it fixed. Likewise the Hiragana.
We have been considering Tatoeba for a long time; we have nearly implemented it a couple of times, but always held back at the last moment. The thing that has always held us back is that I just don't think that the sentences are very interesting or engaging. They are just completely random as far as I can see. Generating huge numbers of sample sentences is not in fact a terribly difficult thing to do; generating good, engaging sentences that people are interested to learn and that show the different uses of words in a rich and enlightening way is really really hard. And I am not *convinced* that tatoeba has managed to do it yet (this is my personal opinion, there are others on the team who disagree with me on that). I want to be sure that we can create something really powerful and engaging with sentences, rather than work with a resource that I am not happy with. I am also worried that if we integrate that content it will then make it much harder for us to implement much more interesting and engaging content later on; it might end up getting in the way and hobbling our developments. I realise that this is annoying because you would like to have *something* available right now, but we have got to aim for getting something really really good in the slightly longer term. We are testing a variety of methods at the moment and will hopefully get something working in the next few weeks.
Would you be suggesting that we should test from the sample sentences taken from tatoeba, or that they should just be displayed as examples?
Thank you as always for your feedback and for your contributions to the wikis. They are massively appreciated. I will hold off on merging your topic in then until you have finished adding the rest of those words. We are soon going to have a test version of a new wordlist creation tool working, and if you had a minute to give that a try while you are adding words to your set, that might help speed things up for you - and I would love to hear your thoughts on it!
Thanks
Ben
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
@Ben - Could you give me the link again for where the Curator tutorial is. I lost it. Sorry.
@Ben - Could you give me the link again for where the Curator tutorial is. I lost it. Sorry.
benwhately 1 month, 3 weeks ago
@phoenixphreak - here it is - http://vzaar.com/videos/895052
Thanks
Ben
@phoenixphreak - here it is - http://vzaar.com/videos/895052
Thanks
Ben
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Ok, cool. Though, is there a separate one for curators? That one only covered moderator-only abilities.
Along that line, would it be possible to be the moderator for the English for Japanese students section?
(And were we still considering merging the two subparts of English for Japanese students/speakers? I understand if it was just to be left as it was too).
Ok, cool. Though, is there a separate one for curators? That one only covered moderator-only abilities.
Along that line, would it be possible to be the moderator for the English for Japanese students section?
(And were we still considering merging the two subparts of English for Japanese students/speakers? I understand if it was just to be left as it was too).
benwhately 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Ah, no, there is only a video for moderation. I have made you a moderator for the English for Japanese students course. I *think* that those two topics have b een merged. Does that look right to you?
Thanks
Ben
Ah, no, there is only a video for moderation. I have made you a moderator for the English for Japanese students course. I *think* that those two topics have b een merged. Does that look right to you?
Thanks
Ben
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month, 3 weeks ago
There are actually a bunch of cards that belong to the Japanese-Kanji topic that have slipped into the featured N5 list and qen's N3 list. They're clearly mistakes considering all but one I've found doesn't even have kanji. All of them quiz you on the English and kana.
Ones I remember off the top of my head:
おとこのこ
ぴったり
たっぷり
レポート
There are actually a bunch of cards that belong to the Japanese-Kanji topic that have slipped into the featured N5 list and qen's N3 list. They're clearly mistakes considering all but one I've found doesn't even have kanji. All of them quiz you on the English and kana.
Ones I remember off the top of my head:
おとこのこ
ぴったり
たっぷり
レポート
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
When I click 'Topics' on the top of the page,
then choose Source Language: Japanese,
then choose the English option,
there are still two sub sections.
The title at the top is "English for Japanese speakers". Under that are two groups: "English for Japanese students" and "English to Japanese".
These subsections look like the difference in "Japanese for English speakers" which has "Japanese", "Japanese Kanji", etc.
I think possibly these two need to be moved together and maybe have a simple title like "English" (as the Japanese for English Speakers has a simple title for 'Japanese')
When I click 'Topics' on the top of the page,
then choose Source Language: Japanese,
then choose the English option,
there are still two sub sections.
The title at the top is "English for Japanese speakers". Under that are two groups: "English for Japanese students" and "English to Japanese".
These subsections look like the difference in "Japanese for English speakers" which has "Japanese", "Japanese Kanji", etc.
I think possibly these two need to be moved together and maybe have a simple title like "English" (as the Japanese for English Speakers has a simple title for 'Japanese')
benwhately 1 month, 3 weeks ago
I have corrected three of those - I couldn't find ぴったり in either of those lists though. If you spot any others please do let me know and I will fix those as well.
Thanks,
Ben
I have corrected three of those - I couldn't find ぴったり in either of those lists though. If you spot any others please do let me know and I will fix those as well.
Thanks,
Ben
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Any update on the plan for the English with source language Japanese? (sorry I know that is not really meant for this thread).
Any update on the plan for the English with source language Japanese? (sorry I know that is not really meant for this thread).
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
I can't say the tatoeba sentences are actually engaging and fun, but so far, I've only ever seen one source of interesting ones, and that was an iPhone app a Japanese friend introduced.
It features stuff like "I took off my panty and can't find it again". ;)
Then again, what people perceive as interesting is difficult to tell. If I had a medical background, my own sentences would be applicable to my profession. If I was a soccer fan, vice versa.
The deal with example sentences, IMHO, is, that they should contain uncomplicated grammar (as it's vocab we're focusing here).
Tatoeba does a quite mixed job there, as it's often native speakers creating or modifying these sentences, and natives rarely have experience with learning their own mother tongue - I'd say zero, actually ^^
Another source for such sentences would be eow.alc.co.jp - these sentence are taken from sources like "The Hiragana Times", tailored around learning Japanese, but not always giving full sentences.
Then there is jiten.net - I prefer these sentences over all others, because the samples start short and grow long when scrolling down the list. Typically, as a learner, I just need to know what exactly a word means and in which context it fits, and that I can see with a handful of samples.
I wonder what other sources there are. You could randomly pick up sentences from the web ... or actually create some yourself. What I had in mind, though, was to have them as _placeholder_ until someone puts a new one, overwriting the tatoeba sentence.
We're talking about huge amounts of sentences here. Nothing you could just do in a couple hours.
Learners themselves may make mistakes while creating them, natives might make mistakes as well (looking forward to reading example sentences in German, my fellow Germans are infamous for not "getting" their own mother tongue - come and visit me, I'll show you around and you'll be amazed what all those commercial lines, price shields etc _really_ say and what they're _supposed_ to say).
The ones at one of the sites above are checked and should be okay (although Tatoeba (the Japanese part) is based on the Tanaka corpus, which had sentences created by students, often wrong - but Jim Breen runs this project, it's been running for more than 2 years now and the early problems should be fixed by now).
As for the creation tool, I'll try it out :) The next project I'd like to run would be a frequency list based set of German words forJapanese learners.
P.S.: Why don't you call the "English for Japanese students" topics 英語? That would be the thing I'd look for if I'd be a Japanese person looking for something like that.
I can't say the tatoeba sentences are actually engaging and fun, but so far, I've only ever seen one source of interesting ones, and that was an iPhone app a Japanese friend introduced.
It features stuff like "I took off my panty and can't find it again". ;)
Then again, what people perceive as interesting is difficult to tell. If I had a medical background, my own sentences would be applicable to my profession. If I was a soccer fan, vice versa.
The deal with example sentences, IMHO, is, that they should contain uncomplicated grammar (as it's vocab we're focusing here).
Tatoeba does a quite mixed job there, as it's often native speakers creating or modifying these sentences, and natives rarely have experience with learning their own mother tongue - I'd say zero, actually ^^
Another source for such sentences would be eow.alc.co.jp - these sentence are taken from sources like "The Hiragana Times", tailored around learning Japanese, but not always giving full sentences.
Then there is jiten.net - I prefer these sentences over all others, because the samples start short and grow long when scrolling down the list. Typically, as a learner, I just need to know what exactly a word means and in which context it fits, and that I can see with a handful of samples.
I wonder what other sources there are. You could randomly pick up sentences from the web ... or actually create some yourself. What I had in mind, though, was to have them as _placeholder_ until someone puts a new one, overwriting the tatoeba sentence.
We're talking about huge amounts of sentences here. Nothing you could just do in a couple hours.
Learners themselves may make mistakes while creating them, natives might make mistakes as well (looking forward to reading example sentences in German, my fellow Germans are infamous for not "getting" their own mother tongue - come and visit me, I'll show you around and you'll be amazed what all those commercial lines, price shields etc _really_ say and what they're _supposed_ to say).
The ones at one of the sites above are checked and should be okay (although Tatoeba (the Japanese part) is based on the Tanaka corpus, which had sentences created by students, often wrong - but Jim Breen runs this project, it's been running for more than 2 years now and the early problems should be fixed by now).
As for the creation tool, I'll try it out :) The next project I'd like to run would be a frequency list based set of German words forJapanese learners.
P.S.: Why don't you call the "English for Japanese students" topics 英語? That would be the thing I'd look for if I'd be a Japanese person looking for something like that.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
I just thought of a problem with word boundaries. Those don't exist in written Japanese - you're supposed to know that a new word starts with a Kanji, but that's not always the case.
Tools like Mecab can to some degree split them up, but not always correctly.
Even tools like Rikaichan can't "read" stuff like じゃ、そろそろ行かなくちゃ！- although that's a perfectly fine phrase.
Even the slightly more formal 行かないとね wouldn't be recognized, because the morpholoy used is not supporting it.
Then there are things like different conjugation models et cetera.
Sentences like 毎日勉強したところで、あのクソ単語、なかなか覚えれないんだよ！will indicate wrong conjugations, because specific grammar points are in use that have nothing to do with what role the WORD in the sentence does - it's a set grammar structure that's at work here. The する is in past tense even though the last word in a sentence defines the tense of the whole sentence, because that's how Japanese works. Another nice example would be 危うくこのラブレターを彼女の代わりに彼女のご詩人に送ったところだった。
Things are really not always that easy. While I could tell you what won't work, suggesting things that do is tough (>.<
I just thought of a problem with word boundaries. Those don't exist in written Japanese - you're supposed to know that a new word starts with a Kanji, but that's not always the case.
Tools like Mecab can to some degree split them up, but not always correctly.
Even tools like Rikaichan can't "read" stuff like じゃ、そろそろ行かなくちゃ！- although that's a perfectly fine phrase.
Even the slightly more formal 行かないとね wouldn't be recognized, because the morpholoy used is not supporting it.
Then there are things like different conjugation models et cetera.
Sentences like 毎日勉強したところで、あのクソ単語、なかなか覚えれないんだよ！will indicate wrong conjugations, because specific grammar points are in use that have nothing to do with what role the WORD in the sentence does - it's a set grammar structure that's at work here. The する is in past tense even though the last word in a sentence defines the tense of the whole sentence, because that's how Japanese works. Another nice example would be 危うくこのラブレターを彼女の代わりに彼女のご詩人に送ったところだった。
Things are really not always that easy. While I could tell you what won't work, suggesting things that do is tough (>.<
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month, 3 weeks ago
I've found another little annoyance: http://www.memrise.com/item...
This card apparently belongs to someone's personal topic, but has replaced the normal card in the featured N5 and N2 lists. This wouldn't be a problem by itself, except that for some reason, it won't stay watered in my garden. I've watered it twice a day for like two weeks now, and it just keeps popping up again.
I'm worried that the existence of the Japanese - Kanji topic and people's personal Japanese topics are undermining the integrity of the regular Japanese lists.
I've found another little annoyance: http://www.memrise.com/item...
This card apparently belongs to someone's personal topic, but has replaced the normal card in the featured N5 and N2 lists. This wouldn't be a problem by itself, except that for some reason, it won't stay watered in my garden. I've watered it twice a day for like two weeks now, and it just keeps popping up again.
I'm worried that the existence of the Japanese - Kanji topic and people's personal Japanese topics are undermining the integrity of the regular Japanese lists.
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 3 weeks ago
That one is really odd. There seems to be some kind of phantom link to it, because it doesn't list it as being a part of the N2 list of words.
I think having the wiki in place will help us track down why this is happening and fix these mistakes easier.
That one is really odd. There seems to be some kind of phantom link to it, because it doesn't list it as being a part of the N2 list of words.
I think having the wiki in place will help us track down why this is happening and fix these mistakes easier.
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 3 weeks ago
The Tatoeba project, formerly the Tanaka Corpus has certified examples that could be used, but the problem with mass importing of a lot of sentences is that the grammar might be too high for someone studying a word at say the N5 level. And it might be too basic for someone studying at a higher level that wants something meatier that can give more context for the use of the word.
It being a placeholder isn't all that bad of an idea though, until others type something new in.
By the way, Tatoeba, Tanaka, WWWJDIC, and jiten.net (and most other free English-Japanese dictionary) use the same set of sentences so it doesn't matter specifically where they come from.
ALC uses sentences from Hiragana times as well as some other resources to build its dictionary though, so the sentences are different, but I feel like they are sometimes too beefy and need more context to be understood.
Anyway, I think the point Ben is trying to make is that the sentences should pertain to you as much as possible to make them memorable instead of just some generic sentences that don't have a strong connection. And, if we leave it blank users are more likely to type something in then if there were something already there.
The Tatoeba project, formerly the Tanaka Corpus has certified examples that could be used, but the problem with mass importing of a lot of sentences is that the grammar might be too high for someone studying a word at say the N5 level. And it might be too basic for someone studying at a higher level that wants something meatier that can give more context for the use of the word.
It being a placeholder isn't all that bad of an idea though, until others type something new in.
By the way, Tatoeba, Tanaka, WWWJDIC, and jiten.net (and most other free English-Japanese dictionary) use the same set of sentences so it doesn't matter specifically where they come from.
ALC uses sentences from Hiragana times as well as some other resources to build its dictionary though, so the sentences are different, but I feel like they are sometimes too beefy and need more context to be understood.
Anyway, I think the point Ben is trying to make is that the sentences should pertain to you as much as possible to make them memorable instead of just some generic sentences that don't have a strong connection. And, if we leave it blank users are more likely to type something in then if there were something already there.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
I see where you're coming from, and you may be right.
Someone who's further in their studies also knows all of the sites mentioned above and some more, while a beginning student might still stumble around. I can remember when I started out pretty clearly - was totally stunned when i discovered denshi jisho. Making up your own sentences might be hard for beginner level students, up to probably B1 level (at which you should be able to build some without problems).
I see where you're coming from, and you may be right.
Someone who's further in their studies also knows all of the sites mentioned above and some more, while a beginning student might still stumble around. I can remember when I started out pretty clearly - was totally stunned when i discovered denshi jisho. Making up your own sentences might be hard for beginner level students, up to probably B1 level (at which you should be able to build some without problems).
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
You can now merge the topics. I finished the list.
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
Gonna do some fine tuning, but that's something I can do over time.
Please set me as curator for the new "Japanisch" topic after the merge.
Thanks.
You can now merge the topics. I finished the list.
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
Gonna do some fine tuning, but that's something I can do over time.
Please set me as curator for the new "Japanisch" topic after the merge.
Thanks.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
You should really be a moderator. It'll be really good for you who has put so much time in.
You should really be a moderator. It'll be really good for you who has put so much time in.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
何のためかな＾＾ If moderators can do useful things, sure. I actually never tried to find out :)
Next thing I'd like to try is to create a frequency list of German words for Japanese people learning my language. That's something I'd really like to do, but I'm not sure if I can do it. My Japanese vocab might now be sufficient yet.
Guess there does exist a list like this on ANKI, only for English speakers. I'll investigate. Also need to find out if there's already a ドイツ語 topic on memrise.
Wouldn't it be cool if I could help my friends out, too?
何のためかな＾＾ If moderators can do useful things, sure. I actually never tried to find out :)
Next thing I'd like to try is to create a frequency list of German words for Japanese people learning my language. That's something I'd really like to do, but I'm not sure if I can do it. My Japanese vocab might now be sufficient yet.
Guess there does exist a list like this on ANKI, only for English speakers. I'll investigate. Also need to find out if there's already a ドイツ語 topic on memrise.
Wouldn't it be cool if I could help my friends out, too?
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
For sure!
The moderators actually do some of the 'behind the scenes' checking. They can merge words, approve words to be in the 'moderated' section, and use tools to look for doubles of the entry or definition. (as well all the regular curator abilities).
Here's a tutorial video by Ben:
http://vzaar.com/videos/895052
For sure!
The moderators actually do some of the 'behind the scenes' checking. They can merge words, approve words to be in the 'moderated' section, and use tools to look for doubles of the entry or definition. (as well all the regular curator abilities).
Here's a tutorial video by Ben:
http://vzaar.com/videos/895052
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Ah, that's pretty cool, thank you :)
With the upcoming changes to the course creation systems and such, I'm actually not sure if it's actually something worth doing right now.
The "Japanese" topic is already in good hands I think, with active "staff".
I'd take care of the "Japanese for German people" aka "Japanisch" topic.
As for the "German for Japanese people" topic, I first have to find out if it's actually possible for me to do a translation of the Top 2500 list I found (Universität Leipzig, 2009). If I'm able to compose that list, it might take all the time except for my learning for the time being.
I investigated, such a topic does exist. I didn't check the one list there, however, but I happen to know the creator by chance :) Ha, the world is small.. ^^
Ah, that's pretty cool, thank you :)
With the upcoming changes to the course creation systems and such, I'm actually not sure if it's actually something worth doing right now.
The "Japanese" topic is already in good hands I think, with active "staff".
I'd take care of the "Japanese for German people" aka "Japanisch" topic.
As for the "German for Japanese people" topic, I first have to find out if it's actually possible for me to do a translation of the Top 2500 list I found (Universität Leipzig, 2009). If I'm able to compose that list, it might take all the time except for my learning for the time being.
I investigated, such a topic does exist. I didn't check the one list there, however, but I happen to know the creator by chance :) Ha, the world is small.. ^^
I really think there should be some short explanation that must be clicked through before a new list creator can create their course. The conventions aren't followed lots of the time and this continually makes a more disorganized dictionary.
The first time a user tries a new study list they have a simple short explanation of seeds, the greenhouse, and the garden. Something like this would help a lot of good-intentioned content providers provide useful content.
The first time a user tries a new study list they have a simple short explanation of seeds, the greenhouse, and the garden. Something like this would help a lot of good-intentioned content providers provide useful content.
2 comments
Latest 1 month, 3 weeks ago
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Maybe I can put together a video tut once the new wordlist creation tools come out. The new system is also suppose to make this whole process a lot clearer, so it might just eliminate the need for one altogether.
Maybe I can put together a video tut once the new wordlist creation tools come out. The new system is also suppose to make this whole process a lot clearer, so it might just eliminate the need for one altogether.
phoenixphreak 1 month, 3 weeks ago
That would be cool. But even just a short single page explaining to read the FAQ would be useful for the languages with extensive conditions already in place.
That would be cool. But even just a short single page explaining to read the FAQ would be useful for the languages with extensive conditions already in place.
I found this awesome extension that you guys might like too. It allows you to set a hotkey so that when you mouseover a word and press the hotkey, it will automatically search for that term in the dictionary that you've chosen, and show the dictionary entry to you in a popup. If you set it for Jim Breen's JDIC, then you always have access to the definitions and audio for every word you're learning without having to leave the page. You can even use it while inside learning/watering sessions so as you're learning words you can quickly hear the pronunciation and look at the example sentences.
Extension: https://chrome.google.com/w...
Create a custom dictionary and use this URL: http://www.csse.monash.edu....
Extension: https://chrome.google.com/w...
Create a custom dictionary and use this URL: http://www.csse.monash.edu....
3 comments
Latest 1 month, 3 weeks ago
TL-ShadowDrgn 1 month, 3 weeks ago
While not exactly the same thing, everyone should definitely have the rikaikun/rikaichan extension for chrome/firefox. It lets you mouse over any Japanese text and see its JDIC entry.
While not exactly the same thing, everyone should definitely have the rikaikun/rikaichan extension for chrome/firefox. It lets you mouse over any Japanese text and see its JDIC entry.
cacoethes 1 month, 3 weeks ago
I agree, I have that too. :) This one is awesome though because you can hear all the audio. I should have made the title of this "what extensions do you use?" I'd love to hear what others are using.
I agree, I have that too. :) This one is awesome though because you can hear all the audio. I should have made the title of this "what extensions do you use?" I'd love to hear what others are using.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Rikaisama on Firefox. Can just switch off those definitions with "D", so you actually learn and not just emulate a higher level of comprehension :)
Rikaisama on Firefox. Can just switch off those definitions with "D", so you actually learn and not just emulate a higher level of comprehension :)
Hiho,
I'm gradually adding stuff from the Jpod101 series Lower Intermediate, Mediate and Upper Intermediate lessons to this:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
I removed the name and the logo of JPOD101 from the list to avoid complications (I checked with the JPOD contacts and they didn't like the idea that I make usable for free what they charge for, but words are free and the audio on Jim Breen's page also).
I will have to go through all the words once again and work on the parts of speech: I used a comma instead of a semicolon to separate them. This will be fixed.
The words have all Kanji included.
Audio for everything is there, except for a few terms that don't have audio online.
I did not stick to the 1-word-definition rule, because it didn't make sense.
This list is work in progress.
I'm gradually adding stuff from the Jpod101 series Lower Intermediate, Mediate and Upper Intermediate lessons to this:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
I removed the name and the logo of JPOD101 from the list to avoid complications (I checked with the JPOD contacts and they didn't like the idea that I make usable for free what they charge for, but words are free and the audio on Jim Breen's page also).
I will have to go through all the words once again and work on the parts of speech: I used a comma instead of a semicolon to separate them. This will be fixed.
The words have all Kanji included.
Audio for everything is there, except for a few terms that don't have audio online.
I did not stick to the 1-word-definition rule, because it didn't make sense.
This list is work in progress.
5 comments
Latest 1 month, 3 weeks ago
cacoethes 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Awesome, just curious though.. How is the audio on Jim Breen's page free? I mean, even they give credit back to JPOD.
Awesome, just curious though.. How is the audio on Jim Breen's page free? I mean, even they give credit back to JPOD.
cacoethes 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Rikaisama also has a link directly to japanesepod101. If we are allowed to use their audio, I will get started right away on adding it. I just highly doubt we're actually allowed to use it since on Memrise there's no mention where that audio is coming from.
Rikaisama also has a link directly to japanesepod101. If we are allowed to use their audio, I will get started right away on adding it. I just highly doubt we're actually allowed to use it since on Memrise there's no mention where that audio is coming from.
ikenaiAndi 1 month, 3 weeks ago
That could be added to the course description. Anyway, I've been busy with the translation of the Core 6000 into German lately, so I put even my studies of everything in the "Japanese" topic on hold.
So, if there are copyright complications to be feared, I'll avoid using that audio. That, however, also means I won't add to the Jpod list anymore. Its worth is greatly reduced without audio supporting it. The list was one of the few that even featured audio on a majority of items (I don't mean those made by learners themselves...)
That could be added to the course description. Anyway, I've been busy with the translation of the Core 6000 into German lately, so I put even my studies of everything in the "Japanese" topic on hold.
So, if there are copyright complications to be feared, I'll avoid using that audio. That, however, also means I won't add to the Jpod list anymore. Its worth is greatly reduced without audio supporting it. The list was one of the few that even featured audio on a majority of items (I don't mean those made by learners themselves...)
Thanks IkenaiAndi for taking the initiative with these words and simplifying the definitions for the WWWJDIC entries. They are a lot more streamlined now. I think though for something as core as this it would be good to discuss the changes beforehand.
That way we can avoid an editing war, where we are editing definitions back and forth and nobody really knows who is doing what.
I think it might be better to simply cut the definition down to:
this (close to the speaker)
and leave out 'noun' and 'noun inferred'. These should be understood from the parts of speech (adj-pn for the ~no words and pn for the ~re words). These are the standard WWWJDIC dictionary codes that most of the words in the Memrise Japanese dictionary are based on:
http://www.csse.monash.edu....
Does that make sense to everybody?
I also think deleting out the kanji is wise because of the whole Microsoft IME issue. These kanji are typable with the Google IME though, and although the kanji are rarely used (only in the most formal of writing), they are technically N1 kanji that people studying for that level need to know (e.g. Me), so it would be helpfully to add this un-typable kanji in a mem if you do delete it.
Anyway, what does everyone think about that? Are the parts of speech clear enough? Do you think the kanji should be added back in?
That way we can avoid an editing war, where we are editing definitions back and forth and nobody really knows who is doing what.
I think it might be better to simply cut the definition down to:
this (close to the speaker)
and leave out 'noun' and 'noun inferred'. These should be understood from the parts of speech (adj-pn for the ~no words and pn for the ~re words). These are the standard WWWJDIC dictionary codes that most of the words in the Memrise Japanese dictionary are based on:
http://www.csse.monash.edu....
Does that make sense to everybody?
I also think deleting out the kanji is wise because of the whole Microsoft IME issue. These kanji are typable with the Google IME though, and although the kanji are rarely used (only in the most formal of writing), they are technically N1 kanji that people studying for that level need to know (e.g. Me), so it would be helpfully to add this un-typable kanji in a mem if you do delete it.
Anyway, what does everyone think about that? Are the parts of speech clear enough? Do you think the kanji should be added back in?
9 comments
Latest 1 month, 3 weeks ago
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months ago
Well, considering that these words are all in the N5 list, I'm not sure relying on the part of speech dictionary codes is a great idea. It makes sense to me, but new users aren't going to be familiar with them and may be confused.
My problems with the kanji are two-fold: first, new learners have no idea whether certain kanji are extremely important, virtually useless, or somewhere in between; second, being tested on rare kanji is annoying, especially when they can't be typed with their normal pronunciations. It's too much to expect Memrise to have a separate Japanese interface so we have to work with what we've got. Ideally, rare kanji could be shown but never directly tested and would include some indication of their usage frequency. Putting that info into a mem isn't terrible, although learners are going to see it once (if they click on it) and never again.
Also, あそこ still has 彼処 attached to it. :P
Well, considering that these words are all in the N5 list, I'm not sure relying on the part of speech dictionary codes is a great idea. It makes sense to me, but new users aren't going to be familiar with them and may be confused.
My problems with the kanji are two-fold: first, new learners have no idea whether certain kanji are extremely important, virtually useless, or somewhere in between; second, being tested on rare kanji is annoying, especially when they can't be typed with their normal pronunciations. It's too much to expect Memrise to have a separate Japanese interface so we have to work with what we've got. Ideally, rare kanji could be shown but never directly tested and would include some indication of their usage frequency. Putting that info into a mem isn't terrible, although learners are going to see it once (if they click on it) and never again.
Also, あそこ still has 彼処 attached to it. :P
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
OK, removed all the ~こ kanji into the extra info.
That's good point about the dictionary codes. I think though anybody studying Japanese would have at least some exposure to what the こそあど言葉 are/mean before they start memrise, but obviously not everybody knows the codes by heart (I certainly don't). Should this just be added as a mem?
For the rare kanji, that's such a quagmire. It's good to be able to recognize it, but I don't have a particular need to be able to type it. I don't think I'll be doing any kind of highly formal writing soon, or at least I hope not. The extra info mem is an okay solution in the meantime I guess though.
It looks like there is a gender and special properties field that can be used as well, maybe these can be used for the rare kanji. Let me check on that.
OK, removed all the ~こ kanji into the extra info.
That's good point about the dictionary codes. I think though anybody studying Japanese would have at least some exposure to what the こそあど言葉 are/mean before they start memrise, but obviously not everybody knows the codes by heart (I certainly don't). Should this just be added as a mem?
For the rare kanji, that's such a quagmire. It's good to be able to recognize it, but I don't have a particular need to be able to type it. I don't think I'll be doing any kind of highly formal writing soon, or at least I hope not. The extra info mem is an okay solution in the meantime I guess though.
It looks like there is a gender and special properties field that can be used as well, maybe these can be used for the rare kanji. Let me check on that.
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
The thing with mems is, when I encounter a word, I only see the mem on fail. So When I encounter "This (close to the speaker)", it might be これ、この.. the "parts of speech" should at least be clearly visible on the test page to look them up while reviewing. If that's possible, there's nothing wrong with the definition. Or maybe a mouseover would do.. I wonder if ben could incorporate such a thing. vi = intransitive verb, and so on..
The thing with mems is, when I encounter a word, I only see the mem on fail. So When I encounter "This (close to the speaker)", it might be これ、この.. the "parts of speech" should at least be clearly visible on the test page to look them up while reviewing. If that's possible, there's nothing wrong with the definition. Or maybe a mouseover would do.. I wonder if ben could incorporate such a thing. vi = intransitive verb, and so on..
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
Mouseover is an awesome idea, I'm sure that is something that is do-able after this round of improvements.
In the meantime, if you do fail, you'll see the mem to help you out for next time. A another alternative is to simply have the interface change these out to the more verbose part of speech, but that might break the interface. The whole reason we put the semicolons in is so they could be broken apart and interpreted like this if need be.
Mouseover is an awesome idea, I'm sure that is something that is do-able after this round of improvements.
In the meantime, if you do fail, you'll see the mem to help you out for next time. A another alternative is to simply have the interface change these out to the more verbose part of speech, but that might break the interface. The whole reason we put the semicolons in is so they could be broken apart and interpreted like this if need be.
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
I see. There are tons of words with parts of speech separated by a comma instead of semicolon. Same for definitions.. Fixing all that manually would be a PITA :)
Would be great if this could somehow be batch-converted on the server, or if comma in that column also counts as a separator. Ben, where are you? ^^
I see. There are tons of words with parts of speech separated by a comma instead of semicolon. Same for definitions.. Fixing all that manually would be a PITA :)
Would be great if this could somehow be batch-converted on the server, or if comma in that column also counts as a separator. Ben, where are you? ^^
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
Last I heard from Ben he was a bit snowed in. But, I think the new wiki/word creation tools might relieve some of this. At least, that's the answer I've been getting from him all this past week. Anyway, it won't hurt, so we need to be a little more patient until those come about.
Last I heard from Ben he was a bit snowed in. But, I think the new wiki/word creation tools might relieve some of this. At least, that's the answer I've been getting from him all this past week. Anyway, it won't hurt, so we need to be a little more patient until those come about.
cacoethes 1 month, 3 weeks ago
@jlptbootcamp: "It looks like there is a gender and special properties field that can be used as well, maybe these can be used for the rare kanji. Let me check on that."
Did you find anything out about this? It would be great if we had a separate field for rare kanji.
@jlptbootcamp: "It looks like there is a gender and special properties field that can be used as well, maybe these can be used for the rare kanji. Let me check on that."
Did you find anything out about this? It would be great if we had a separate field for rare kanji.
cacoethes 1 month, 3 weeks ago
Oops, just realized this probably falls under the "wait and be patient while we finish creating our awesome new wiki tools" category. I am not patient enough! lol.
Oops, just realized this probably falls under the "wait and be patient while we finish creating our awesome new wiki tools" category. I am not patient enough! lol.
We are in the process of developing a set of "conventions" for how content should be added. These are intended to be a framework which will allow all users to add items to the database in a way that ensures that they are tested effectively by Memrise, and ensures maximally efficient learning.
These conventions are still a work in progress, so please add your thoughts and comments, and check out the sample set that Memrise user [jlptbootcamp](http://www.memrise.com/user/jlptbootcamp/) has made [here](http://www.memrise.com/topic/japanese-memrise/), which is an example that follows these conventions.
#There will, in future (very soon), be two Japanese Topics - one "Japanese" on "Japanese Kanji".
_In Japanese:_
The Kana will be written in the Japanese word field, the Kanji will be written in the pronunciation field (which will be renamed for this topic). We will initially test the Kana for each word and then introduce the kanji once they have reached a level of familiarity with the word. We do this with Chinese, where we introduce the pinyin for chinese characters after a delay, so the machinery would be the same and is already in place.
Words that have no kanji should be written only in Kana; whichever is normally used for writing that word.
Items will be defined in English.
A single definition should be used, but if multiple definitions are necessary they should be separated by a semi colon and a space. Example: Slow; Early. This does cause some trickiness in testing, but we have to deal with this for all languages as there is often a little ambiguity. I think that we can make this work. NB "single definition" does not mean that it need only be a single word. Use more than one word, or even a short phrase if that is required.
Extraneous information should be avoided, but if necessary it should be listed after the definition and in parenthesis. Example: (formal) or (informal)
All pronunciations should be written in hiragana.
Standard dictionary forms should be used (e.g. いく) rather than the polite form, eg (e.g. いきます）.
Both -i and -na adjectives are recorded including their suffix (e.g. 凄い, 上手な). -i and -na adjectives which are commonly used in both adjectival and adverbial form are always recorded in their adjective form for consistency. The part of speech for these words is listed as 'na-adjective' or 'i-adjective'.
-i and -na adjectives that are only or usually used as adverbs are recorded with the respective adverbial suffix (e.g. よく, 急に) and the part of speech '-i adjective (usu. adverb)' or '-na adjective (usu. adverb)'.
Adjectives that don't have a suffix (such as もっと) are listed as 'adjective'. Adverbs without a suffix (such as ゆっくり) are listed as 'adverb'.
_In Japanese Kanji:_
The Kanji will be written in the "word" Field, which will be renamed "kanji".
The Onyomi and Kunyomi readings of Kanji will be written in the pronunciation field, separated by a semi colon so that either pronunciation will be marked correctly. They will be introduced after the learner has familiarity with the Kanji's meaning, as in the Chinese topic with the pinyin being introduced at a delay.
Kunyomi should always be written in Hiragana, Onyomi should always be written in Katakana.
##Entry Examples:
#Basic entry:
Word: いく
Kanji: 行く
Definition: Go
#Extraneous information:
Word:いった
Kanji: 行った
Definition: Went (informal)
#Multiple definition:
Word: はやい
Kanji:早い
Definition: Fast; Early
#Single kanji:
Word: よ; ドク
Kanji: 読
Definition: to read
These conventions are still a work in progress, so please add your thoughts and comments, and check out the sample set that Memrise user [jlptbootcamp](http://www.memrise.com/user/jlptbootcamp/) has made [here](http://www.memrise.com/topic/japanese-memrise/), which is an example that follows these conventions.
#There will, in future (very soon), be two Japanese Topics - one "Japanese" on "Japanese Kanji".
_In Japanese:_
The Kana will be written in the Japanese word field, the Kanji will be written in the pronunciation field (which will be renamed for this topic). We will initially test the Kana for each word and then introduce the kanji once they have reached a level of familiarity with the word. We do this with Chinese, where we introduce the pinyin for chinese characters after a delay, so the machinery would be the same and is already in place.
Words that have no kanji should be written only in Kana; whichever is normally used for writing that word.
Items will be defined in English.
A single definition should be used, but if multiple definitions are necessary they should be separated by a semi colon and a space. Example: Slow; Early. This does cause some trickiness in testing, but we have to deal with this for all languages as there is often a little ambiguity. I think that we can make this work. NB "single definition" does not mean that it need only be a single word. Use more than one word, or even a short phrase if that is required.
Extraneous information should be avoided, but if necessary it should be listed after the definition and in parenthesis. Example: (formal) or (informal)
All pronunciations should be written in hiragana.
Standard dictionary forms should be used (e.g. いく) rather than the polite form, eg (e.g. いきます）.
Both -i and -na adjectives are recorded including their suffix (e.g. 凄い, 上手な). -i and -na adjectives which are commonly used in both adjectival and adverbial form are always recorded in their adjective form for consistency. The part of speech for these words is listed as 'na-adjective' or 'i-adjective'.
-i and -na adjectives that are only or usually used as adverbs are recorded with the respective adverbial suffix (e.g. よく, 急に) and the part of speech '-i adjective (usu. adverb)' or '-na adjective (usu. adverb)'.
Adjectives that don't have a suffix (such as もっと) are listed as 'adjective'. Adverbs without a suffix (such as ゆっくり) are listed as 'adverb'.
_In Japanese Kanji:_
The Kanji will be written in the "word" Field, which will be renamed "kanji".
The Onyomi and Kunyomi readings of Kanji will be written in the pronunciation field, separated by a semi colon so that either pronunciation will be marked correctly. They will be introduced after the learner has familiarity with the Kanji's meaning, as in the Chinese topic with the pinyin being introduced at a delay.
Kunyomi should always be written in Hiragana, Onyomi should always be written in Katakana.
##Entry Examples:
#Basic entry:
Word: いく
Kanji: 行く
Definition: Go
#Extraneous information:
Word:いった
Kanji: 行った
Definition: Went (informal)
#Multiple definition:
Word: はやい
Kanji:早い
Definition: Fast; Early
#Single kanji:
Word: よ; ドク
Kanji: 読
Definition: to read
16 comments
Latest 1 month, 4 weeks ago
TL-AmericanUmlaut 6 months ago
Hi! I'm surprised that there are no comments here yet. You asked for feedback on these guidelines in the discussion thread for the N2 list, but I'll post here since it's relevant to all Japanese lists.>> Words that have no kanji should be written only in Kana (hiragana or katakana or both, separated by a semi colon).I suggest using only hiragana or only katakana for any given word, never both. The script used should be the one that would normally be used when writing the word, so most words would be hiragana, but foreign words, onomatopoeia and animal/plant names without kanji would be katakana.>> A single definition should be used, but if multiple definitions are necessary they should be separated by a semi colon and a space. Example: >> Slow; Early.I would change this slightly to say that the simplest possible definition should be used. I agree with the example given, but the way this is written gives the impression that a single word needs to be found to fit each meaning of a Japanese word, and sometimes that just won't fit. No good Japanese example comes to mind, but if I encountered "Schadenfreude" in a German list and there was a rule preventing an explanatory phrase, I'd be at a loss.>> adverbs should be recorded in their full ーい or ーな formsI don't understand exactly what the intent here is. Japanese adverbs don't have ーい or ーな forms; ーい adjectives that are used as adverbs end in ーく (早い -> 早く) and ーな adjectives end in ーに when used as adverbs (上手な -> 上手に). I agree that the endings should be included in adverbs, I just think I either misunderstood your intent with this or there's a mistake in the endings you indicate. I also think endings should be included for all adjectives and adverbs rather than leaving the な off of nominal adjectives. Showing endings for three of the four possibilities but not for nominal adjectives that aren't being used as adverbs is inconsistent.>> The Onyomi and Kunyomi readings of Kanji will be written in the pronunciation field, separated by a semi colon >> so that either pronunciation will be marked correctly. They will be introduced after the learner has familiarity with >> the Kanji's meaning, as in the Chinese topic with the pinyin being introduced at a delay.I disagree with this setup quite a bit. Allowing either pronunciation means that the student only has to learn one reading for each kanji, but it's really important to learn both Onyomi and Kunyomi. Isn't it possible to train Onyomi and Kunyomi separately like you do for kana and kanji versions of a word?How do you suggest handling characters that have multiple Onyomi and multiple Kunyomi? I think there should be a guideline that readings be limited to the most commonly used ones, but even then you can end up with multiple readings of both types.I would also specify that Kunyomi are always written in hiragana and Onyomi are always written in katakana. You did so in your example, but didn't explicitly say that that was the standard.
Hi! I'm surprised that there are no comments here yet. You asked for feedback on these guidelines in the discussion thread for the N2 list, but I'll post here since it's relevant to all Japanese lists.>> Words that have no kanji should be written only in Kana (hiragana or katakana or both, separated by a semi colon).I suggest using only hiragana or only katakana for any given word, never both. The script used should be the one that would normally be used when writing the word, so most words would be hiragana, but foreign words, onomatopoeia and animal/plant names without kanji would be katakana.>> A single definition should be used, but if multiple definitions are necessary they should be separated by a semi colon and a space. Example: >> Slow; Early.I would change this slightly to say that the simplest possible definition should be used. I agree with the example given, but the way this is written gives the impression that a single word needs to be found to fit each meaning of a Japanese word, and sometimes that just won't fit. No good Japanese example comes to mind, but if I encountered "Schadenfreude" in a German list and there was a rule preventing an explanatory phrase, I'd be at a loss.>> adverbs should be recorded in their full ーい or ーな formsI don't understand exactly what the intent here is. Japanese adverbs don't have ーい or ーな forms; ーい adjectives that are used as adverbs end in ーく (早い -> 早く) and ーな adjectives end in ーに when used as adverbs (上手な -> 上手に). I agree that the endings should be included in adverbs, I just think I either misunderstood your intent with this or there's a mistake in the endings you indicate. I also think endings should be included for all adjectives and adverbs rather than leaving the な off of nominal adjectives. Showing endings for three of the four possibilities but not for nominal adjectives that aren't being used as adverbs is inconsistent.>> The Onyomi and Kunyomi readings of Kanji will be written in the pronunciation field, separated by a semi colon >> so that either pronunciation will be marked correctly. They will be introduced after the learner has familiarity with >> the Kanji's meaning, as in the Chinese topic with the pinyin being introduced at a delay.I disagree with this setup quite a bit. Allowing either pronunciation means that the student only has to learn one reading for each kanji, but it's really important to learn both Onyomi and Kunyomi. Isn't it possible to train Onyomi and Kunyomi separately like you do for kana and kanji versions of a word?How do you suggest handling characters that have multiple Onyomi and multiple Kunyomi? I think there should be a guideline that readings be limited to the most commonly used ones, but even then you can end up with multiple readings of both types.I would also specify that Kunyomi are always written in hiragana and Onyomi are always written in katakana. You did so in your example, but didn't explicitly say that that was the standard.
TL-AmericanUmlaut 6 months ago
Hi! I'm surprised that there are no comments here yet. You asked for feedback on these guidelines in the discussion thread for the N2 list, but I'll post here since it's relevant to all Japanese lists.>> Words that have no kanji should be written only in Kana (hiragana or katakana or both, separated by a semi colon).I suggest using only hiragana or only katakana for any given word, never both. The script used should be the one that would normally be used when writing the word, so most words would be hiragana, but foreign words, onomatopoeia and animal/plant names without kanji would be katakana.>> A single definition should be used, but if multiple definitions are necessary they should be separated by a semi colon and a space. Example: >> Slow; Early.I would change this slightly to say that the simplest possible definition should be used. I agree with the example given, but the way this is written gives the impression that a single word needs to be found to fit each meaning of a Japanese word, and sometimes that just won't fit. No good Japanese example comes to mind, but if I encountered "Schadenfreude" in a German list and there was a rule preventing an explanatory phrase, I'd be at a loss.>> adverbs should be recorded in their full ーい or ーな formsI don't understand exactly what the intent here is. Japanese adverbs don't have ーい or ーな forms; ーい adjectives that are used as adverbs end in ーく (早い -> 早く) and ーな adjectives end in ーに when used as adverbs (上手な -> 上手に). I agree that the endings should be included in adverbs, I just think I either misunderstood your intent with this or there's a mistake in the endings you indicate. I also think endings should be included for all adjectives and adverbs rather than leaving the な off of nominal adjectives. Showing endings for three of the four possibilities but not for nominal adjectives that aren't being used as adverbs is inconsistent.>> The Onyomi and Kunyomi readings of Kanji will be written in the pronunciation field, separated by a semi colon >> so that either pronunciation will be marked correctly. They will be introduced after the learner has familiarity with >> the Kanji's meaning, as in the Chinese topic with the pinyin being introduced at a delay.I disagree with this setup quite a bit. Allowing either pronunciation means that the student only has to learn one reading for each kanji, but it's really important to learn both Onyomi and Kunyomi. Isn't it possible to train Onyomi and Kunyomi separately like you do for kana and kanji versions of a word?How do you suggest handling characters that have multiple Onyomi and multiple Kunyomi? I think there should be a guideline that readings be limited to the most commonly used ones, but even then you can end up with multiple readings of both types.I would also specify that Kunyomi are always written in hiragana and Onyomi are always written in katakana. You did so in your example, but didn't explicitly say that that was the standard.
Hi! I'm surprised that there are no comments here yet. You asked for feedback on these guidelines in the discussion thread for the N2 list, but I'll post here since it's relevant to all Japanese lists.>> Words that have no kanji should be written only in Kana (hiragana or katakana or both, separated by a semi colon).I suggest using only hiragana or only katakana for any given word, never both. The script used should be the one that would normally be used when writing the word, so most words would be hiragana, but foreign words, onomatopoeia and animal/plant names without kanji would be katakana.>> A single definition should be used, but if multiple definitions are necessary they should be separated by a semi colon and a space. Example: >> Slow; Early.I would change this slightly to say that the simplest possible definition should be used. I agree with the example given, but the way this is written gives the impression that a single word needs to be found to fit each meaning of a Japanese word, and sometimes that just won't fit. No good Japanese example comes to mind, but if I encountered "Schadenfreude" in a German list and there was a rule preventing an explanatory phrase, I'd be at a loss.>> adverbs should be recorded in their full ーい or ーな formsI don't understand exactly what the intent here is. Japanese adverbs don't have ーい or ーな forms; ーい adjectives that are used as adverbs end in ーく (早い -> 早く) and ーな adjectives end in ーに when used as adverbs (上手な -> 上手に). I agree that the endings should be included in adverbs, I just think I either misunderstood your intent with this or there's a mistake in the endings you indicate. I also think endings should be included for all adjectives and adverbs rather than leaving the な off of nominal adjectives. Showing endings for three of the four possibilities but not for nominal adjectives that aren't being used as adverbs is inconsistent.>> The Onyomi and Kunyomi readings of Kanji will be written in the pronunciation field, separated by a semi colon >> so that either pronunciation will be marked correctly. They will be introduced after the learner has familiarity with >> the Kanji's meaning, as in the Chinese topic with the pinyin being introduced at a delay.I disagree with this setup quite a bit. Allowing either pronunciation means that the student only has to learn one reading for each kanji, but it's really important to learn both Onyomi and Kunyomi. Isn't it possible to train Onyomi and Kunyomi separately like you do for kana and kanji versions of a word?How do you suggest handling characters that have multiple Onyomi and multiple Kunyomi? I think there should be a guideline that readings be limited to the most commonly used ones, but even then you can end up with multiple readings of both types.I would also specify that Kunyomi are always written in hiragana and Onyomi are always written in katakana. You did so in your example, but didn't explicitly say that that was the standard.
benwhately 6 months ago
Right, this is great stuff. I have altered the text to reflect that only Hiragana or Katakana should be used for each entry, and also to make it clear that definitions of more than one word are acceptable - you are absolutely right that they are definitely needed sometimes.Ok, I think that I get your point on the adverbs, and I think that you are definitely correct, but I don't feel qualified to re-write that part. Could you write it as you think that it should be written? That would be brilliant.Re the Onyomi; kunyomi readings, we *could* set it up so that you always had to write BOTH the most common Kunyomi and Onyomi in order to get the marks. This becomes quite troublesome when, as you say, there are multiple common Onyomi and Kunyomi for a kanji. This would require you to write a very long answer, and would be difficult to make the system flexible to correct answers entered, for example, in a different order to that specified. THere is the issue that a lot of learners, at some stage of their learning, are either keen to not focus to much on learning both readings, or they know both readings really well, but forget which order we are asking for them in... etc. There is nothing more irritating and demoralising than knowing the answer and being punished for writing it in a different form. Japanese learning requires the strengthening of a wide variety of different types of knowledge. It seems, from the feedback that we get, that different people are keen to focus on different aspects of their Japanese learning at different times. This is why we have split the Japanese into the "Japanese" and "Japanese - Kanji" topics. Perhaps, though, we actually need to do split things up even more: the "kanji" topic can be designed to teach people the meaning of each Kanji first, and then at least one of its readings. To do this we can have the most common onyomi and kunyomi, separated by semi colons, so that either will be acceptable. Then, for those that want to focus more on the correct readings, we can have another topic called "Japanese - Kanji readings" where the Onyomi is given in one field and the Kunyomi in another field. Then in each of those fields we can require all the correct onyomi of all the correct kunyomi to be written. Since this topic will be focusing purely on the correct readings, people are less likely to be annoyed by being forced to write them all, and furthermore we can more easily make the system a bit flexible to accepting variations on the correct answer. I realise that this is a bit of a hack, but it would give some flexibility over how people were tested and cater for different requirements of different users. Once we have got all the data in the Kanji topic we could easily populate the "kanji-readings" topic without much more effort at all. I have added in that clarification about using katakana for onyomi and Hiragana for kunyomi. Thanks!
Right, this is great stuff. I have altered the text to reflect that only Hiragana or Katakana should be used for each entry, and also to make it clear that definitions of more than one word are acceptable - you are absolutely right that they are definitely needed sometimes.Ok, I think that I get your point on the adverbs, and I think that you are definitely correct, but I don't feel qualified to re-write that part. Could you write it as you think that it should be written? That would be brilliant.Re the Onyomi; kunyomi readings, we *could* set it up so that you always had to write BOTH the most common Kunyomi and Onyomi in order to get the marks. This becomes quite troublesome when, as you say, there are multiple common Onyomi and Kunyomi for a kanji. This would require you to write a very long answer, and would be difficult to make the system flexible to correct answers entered, for example, in a different order to that specified. THere is the issue that a lot of learners, at some stage of their learning, are either keen to not focus to much on learning both readings, or they know both readings really well, but forget which order we are asking for them in... etc. There is nothing more irritating and demoralising than knowing the answer and being punished for writing it in a different form. Japanese learning requires the strengthening of a wide variety of different types of knowledge. It seems, from the feedback that we get, that different people are keen to focus on different aspects of their Japanese learning at different times. This is why we have split the Japanese into the "Japanese" and "Japanese - Kanji" topics. Perhaps, though, we actually need to do split things up even more: the "kanji" topic can be designed to teach people the meaning of each Kanji first, and then at least one of its readings. To do this we can have the most common onyomi and kunyomi, separated by semi colons, so that either will be acceptable. Then, for those that want to focus more on the correct readings, we can have another topic called "Japanese - Kanji readings" where the Onyomi is given in one field and the Kunyomi in another field. Then in each of those fields we can require all the correct onyomi of all the correct kunyomi to be written. Since this topic will be focusing purely on the correct readings, people are less likely to be annoyed by being forced to write them all, and furthermore we can more easily make the system a bit flexible to accepting variations on the correct answer. I realise that this is a bit of a hack, but it would give some flexibility over how people were tested and cater for different requirements of different users. Once we have got all the data in the Kanji topic we could easily populate the "kanji-readings" topic without much more effort at all. I have added in that clarification about using katakana for onyomi and Hiragana for kunyomi. Thanks!
benwhately 6 months ago
Right, this is great stuff. I have altered the text to reflect that only Hiragana or Katakana should be used for each entry, and also to make it clear that definitions of more than one word are acceptable - you are absolutely right that they are definitely needed sometimes.Ok, I think that I get your point on the adverbs, and I think that you are definitely correct, but I don't feel qualified to re-write that part. Could you write it as you think that it should be written? That would be brilliant.Re the Onyomi; kunyomi readings, we *could* set it up so that you always had to write BOTH the most common Kunyomi and Onyomi in order to get the marks. This becomes quite troublesome when, as you say, there are multiple common Onyomi and Kunyomi for a kanji. This would require you to write a very long answer, and would be difficult to make the system flexible to correct answers entered, for example, in a different order to that specified. THere is the issue that a lot of learners, at some stage of their learning, are either keen to not focus to much on learning both readings, or they know both readings really well, but forget which order we are asking for them in... etc. There is nothing more irritating and demoralising than knowing the answer and being punished for writing it in a different form. Japanese learning requires the strengthening of a wide variety of different types of knowledge. It seems, from the feedback that we get, that different people are keen to focus on different aspects of their Japanese learning at different times. This is why we have split the Japanese into the "Japanese" and "Japanese - Kanji" topics. Perhaps, though, we actually need to do split things up even more: the "kanji" topic can be designed to teach people the meaning of each Kanji first, and then at least one of its readings. To do this we can have the most common onyomi and kunyomi, separated by semi colons, so that either will be acceptable. Then, for those that want to focus more on the correct readings, we can have another topic called "Japanese - Kanji readings" where the Onyomi is given in one field and the Kunyomi in another field. Then in each of those fields we can require all the correct onyomi of all the correct kunyomi to be written. Since this topic will be focusing purely on the correct readings, people are less likely to be annoyed by being forced to write them all, and furthermore we can more easily make the system a bit flexible to accepting variations on the correct answer. I realise that this is a bit of a hack, but it would give some flexibility over how people were tested and cater for different requirements of different users. Once we have got all the data in the Kanji topic we could easily populate the "kanji-readings" topic without much more effort at all. I have added in that clarification about using katakana for onyomi and Hiragana for kunyomi. Thanks!
Right, this is great stuff. I have altered the text to reflect that only Hiragana or Katakana should be used for each entry, and also to make it clear that definitions of more than one word are acceptable - you are absolutely right that they are definitely needed sometimes.Ok, I think that I get your point on the adverbs, and I think that you are definitely correct, but I don't feel qualified to re-write that part. Could you write it as you think that it should be written? That would be brilliant.Re the Onyomi; kunyomi readings, we *could* set it up so that you always had to write BOTH the most common Kunyomi and Onyomi in order to get the marks. This becomes quite troublesome when, as you say, there are multiple common Onyomi and Kunyomi for a kanji. This would require you to write a very long answer, and would be difficult to make the system flexible to correct answers entered, for example, in a different order to that specified. THere is the issue that a lot of learners, at some stage of their learning, are either keen to not focus to much on learning both readings, or they know both readings really well, but forget which order we are asking for them in... etc. There is nothing more irritating and demoralising than knowing the answer and being punished for writing it in a different form. Japanese learning requires the strengthening of a wide variety of different types of knowledge. It seems, from the feedback that we get, that different people are keen to focus on different aspects of their Japanese learning at different times. This is why we have split the Japanese into the "Japanese" and "Japanese - Kanji" topics. Perhaps, though, we actually need to do split things up even more: the "kanji" topic can be designed to teach people the meaning of each Kanji first, and then at least one of its readings. To do this we can have the most common onyomi and kunyomi, separated by semi colons, so that either will be acceptable. Then, for those that want to focus more on the correct readings, we can have another topic called "Japanese - Kanji readings" where the Onyomi is given in one field and the Kunyomi in another field. Then in each of those fields we can require all the correct onyomi of all the correct kunyomi to be written. Since this topic will be focusing purely on the correct readings, people are less likely to be annoyed by being forced to write them all, and furthermore we can more easily make the system a bit flexible to accepting variations on the correct answer. I realise that this is a bit of a hack, but it would give some flexibility over how people were tested and cater for different requirements of different users. Once we have got all the data in the Kanji topic we could easily populate the "kanji-readings" topic without much more effort at all. I have added in that clarification about using katakana for onyomi and Hiragana for kunyomi. Thanks!
TL-AmericanUmlaut 6 months ago
With regard to the adjectives/adverbs section:"For na-adjectives, the na should not be listed in the word field, but na-adjective should be put in the "part of speech" field. i-adjectives the -i should be listed in the word field and i-adjective in the part of speech field.adverbs should be recorded in their full ーい or ーな forms"My suggestion for this section would be:---Both -i and -na adjectives are recorded including their suffix (e.g. 凄い, 上手な). -i and -na adjectives which are commonly used in both adjectival and adverbial form are always recorded in their adjective form for consistency. The part of speech for these words is listed as 'na-adjective' or 'i-adjective'. -i and -na adjectives that are only or usually used as adverbs are recorded with the respective adverbial suffix (e.g. よく, 急に) and the part of speech '-i adjective (usu. adverb)' or '-na adjective (usu. adverb)'. Adjectives that don't have a suffix (such as もっと) are listed as 'adjective'. Adverbs without a suffix (such as ゆっくり) are listed as 'adverb'.--As for the issue of kanji readings, I think that the first step of separating kanji study from vocabulary study is a good idea. You're right that there is a huge array of fields of information that you learn when you study Japanese, and it makes even creating your own hand-made flash cards a bit of a nightmare, let alone setting up cards using a more generalized system.Having every reading count as a legal response to a kanji is untenable, because it doesn't force the user to learn enough. Forcing the user to enter every reading in the correct order is also bad pedagogy; it makes the task of learning harder by making you memorize a whole bunch of information, and adds an arbitrary order to the readings as well, which is useless information but would be hard to remember. I am also against limiting each kanji to a single Onyomi and a single Kunyomi, because that forces us to leave out whole swaths of useful unformation.My suggestion would this: Instead of one "word" for each kanji, make a group. The first word you encounter is the kanji, for which you have to learn the English meaning (this would have to be one-way by definition because you can't type kanji without learning their readings). When you know the meaning, you are then introduced to at least one word that makes use of every reading, and you learn them as normal vocabulary. So for 学 you would learn:学 - learning (maybe with a list of all readings to let the student at least see them once)And then when you had that down, you'd get学ぶ - まなぶ - to learn学校 - がっこう - school学部 - がくぶ - (academic) facility, departmentI think that would be ideal, since it more or less reflects how you learn kanji by reading - you see a character you don't know, you look it up in the Nelson's and try to learn the most common readings, then you familiarize yourself with the readings by repeatedly being exposed to terms that use the kanji.Would something like that be technically doable? I'm not familiar with the technical limitations of memrise yet, so I don't know how much ability exists to link words together such that a term can be forced into the list when its "parent" has been introduced.
With regard to the adjectives/adverbs section:"For na-adjectives, the na should not be listed in the word field, but na-adjective should be put in the "part of speech" field. i-adjectives the -i should be listed in the word field and i-adjective in the part of speech field.adverbs should be recorded in their full ーい or ーな forms"My suggestion for this section would be:---Both -i and -na adjectives are recorded including their suffix (e.g. 凄い, 上手な). -i and -na adjectives which are commonly used in both adjectival and adverbial form are always recorded in their adjective form for consistency. The part of speech for these words is listed as 'na-adjective' or 'i-adjective'. -i and -na adjectives that are only or usually used as adverbs are recorded with the respective adverbial suffix (e.g. よく, 急に) and the part of speech '-i adjective (usu. adverb)' or '-na adjective (usu. adverb)'. Adjectives that don't have a suffix (such as もっと) are listed as 'adjective'. Adverbs without a suffix (such as ゆっくり) are listed as 'adverb'.--As for the issue of kanji readings, I think that the first step of separating kanji study from vocabulary study is a good idea. You're right that there is a huge array of fields of information that you learn when you study Japanese, and it makes even creating your own hand-made flash cards a bit of a nightmare, let alone setting up cards using a more generalized system.Having every reading count as a legal response to a kanji is untenable, because it doesn't force the user to learn enough. Forcing the user to enter every reading in the correct order is also bad pedagogy; it makes the task of learning harder by making you memorize a whole bunch of information, and adds an arbitrary order to the readings as well, which is useless information but would be hard to remember. I am also against limiting each kanji to a single Onyomi and a single Kunyomi, because that forces us to leave out whole swaths of useful unformation.My suggestion would this: Instead of one "word" for each kanji, make a group. The first word you encounter is the kanji, for which you have to learn the English meaning (this would have to be one-way by definition because you can't type kanji without learning their readings). When you know the meaning, you are then introduced to at least one word that makes use of every reading, and you learn them as normal vocabulary. So for 学 you would learn:学 - learning (maybe with a list of all readings to let the student at least see them once)And then when you had that down, you'd get学ぶ - まなぶ - to learn学校 - がっこう - school学部 - がくぶ - (academic) facility, departmentI think that would be ideal, since it more or less reflects how you learn kanji by reading - you see a character you don't know, you look it up in the Nelson's and try to learn the most common readings, then you familiarize yourself with the readings by repeatedly being exposed to terms that use the kanji.Would something like that be technically doable? I'm not familiar with the technical limitations of memrise yet, so I don't know how much ability exists to link words together such that a term can be forced into the list when its "parent" has been introduced.
TL-AmericanUmlaut 6 months ago
With regard to the adjectives/adverbs section:"For na-adjectives, the na should not be listed in the word field, but na-adjective should be put in the "part of speech" field. i-adjectives the -i should be listed in the word field and i-adjective in the part of speech field.adverbs should be recorded in their full ーい or ーな forms"My suggestion for this section would be:---Both -i and -na adjectives are recorded including their suffix (e.g. 凄い, 上手な). -i and -na adjectives which are commonly used in both adjectival and adverbial form are always recorded in their adjective form for consistency. The part of speech for these words is listed as 'na-adjective' or 'i-adjective'. -i and -na adjectives that are only or usually used as adverbs are recorded with the respective adverbial suffix (e.g. よく, 急に) and the part of speech '-i adjective (usu. adverb)' or '-na adjective (usu. adverb)'. Adjectives that don't have a suffix (such as もっと) are listed as 'adjective'. Adverbs without a suffix (such as ゆっくり) are listed as 'adverb'.--As for the issue of kanji readings, I think that the first step of separating kanji study from vocabulary study is a good idea. You're right that there is a huge array of fields of information that you learn when you study Japanese, and it makes even creating your own hand-made flash cards a bit of a nightmare, let alone setting up cards using a more generalized system.Having every reading count as a legal response to a kanji is untenable, because it doesn't force the user to learn enough. Forcing the user to enter every reading in the correct order is also bad pedagogy; it makes the task of learning harder by making you memorize a whole bunch of information, and adds an arbitrary order to the readings as well, which is useless information but would be hard to remember. I am also against limiting each kanji to a single Onyomi and a single Kunyomi, because that forces us to leave out whole swaths of useful unformation.My suggestion would this: Instead of one "word" for each kanji, make a group. The first word you encounter is the kanji, for which you have to learn the English meaning (this would have to be one-way by definition because you can't type kanji without learning their readings). When you know the meaning, you are then introduced to at least one word that makes use of every reading, and you learn them as normal vocabulary. So for 学 you would learn:学 - learning (maybe with a list of all readings to let the student at least see them once)And then when you had that down, you'd get学ぶ - まなぶ - to learn学校 - がっこう - school学部 - がくぶ - (academic) facility, departmentI think that would be ideal, since it more or less reflects how you learn kanji by reading - you see a character you don't know, you look it up in the Nelson's and try to learn the most common readings, then you familiarize yourself with the readings by repeatedly being exposed to terms that use the kanji.Would something like that be technically doable? I'm not familiar with the technical limitations of memrise yet, so I don't know how much ability exists to link words together such that a term can be forced into the list when its "parent" has been introduced.
With regard to the adjectives/adverbs section:"For na-adjectives, the na should not be listed in the word field, but na-adjective should be put in the "part of speech" field. i-adjectives the -i should be listed in the word field and i-adjective in the part of speech field.adverbs should be recorded in their full ーい or ーな forms"My suggestion for this section would be:---Both -i and -na adjectives are recorded including their suffix (e.g. 凄い, 上手な). -i and -na adjectives which are commonly used in both adjectival and adverbial form are always recorded in their adjective form for consistency. The part of speech for these words is listed as 'na-adjective' or 'i-adjective'. -i and -na adjectives that are only or usually used as adverbs are recorded with the respective adverbial suffix (e.g. よく, 急に) and the part of speech '-i adjective (usu. adverb)' or '-na adjective (usu. adverb)'. Adjectives that don't have a suffix (such as もっと) are listed as 'adjective'. Adverbs without a suffix (such as ゆっくり) are listed as 'adverb'.--As for the issue of kanji readings, I think that the first step of separating kanji study from vocabulary study is a good idea. You're right that there is a huge array of fields of information that you learn when you study Japanese, and it makes even creating your own hand-made flash cards a bit of a nightmare, let alone setting up cards using a more generalized system.Having every reading count as a legal response to a kanji is untenable, because it doesn't force the user to learn enough. Forcing the user to enter every reading in the correct order is also bad pedagogy; it makes the task of learning harder by making you memorize a whole bunch of information, and adds an arbitrary order to the readings as well, which is useless information but would be hard to remember. I am also against limiting each kanji to a single Onyomi and a single Kunyomi, because that forces us to leave out whole swaths of useful unformation.My suggestion would this: Instead of one "word" for each kanji, make a group. The first word you encounter is the kanji, for which you have to learn the English meaning (this would have to be one-way by definition because you can't type kanji without learning their readings). When you know the meaning, you are then introduced to at least one word that makes use of every reading, and you learn them as normal vocabulary. So for 学 you would learn:学 - learning (maybe with a list of all readings to let the student at least see them once)And then when you had that down, you'd get学ぶ - まなぶ - to learn学校 - がっこう - school学部 - がくぶ - (academic) facility, departmentI think that would be ideal, since it more or less reflects how you learn kanji by reading - you see a character you don't know, you look it up in the Nelson's and try to learn the most common readings, then you familiarize yourself with the readings by repeatedly being exposed to terms that use the kanji.Would something like that be technically doable? I'm not familiar with the technical limitations of memrise yet, so I don't know how much ability exists to link words together such that a term can be forced into the list when its "parent" has been introduced.
benwhately 6 months ago
Great, I have edited the conventions above to include that. Thanks.I think that you are right that teaching all of the different readings of the kanji in context would be a better solution than trying to teach and test them all at the point of learning the kanji itself. First test on just one or two readings so that people can at least write the kanji and show that they know it. At the same time make them aware of the other readings, but don't try to hard to make the testing work for those. Then build on this nowledge when learning words which use the kanji in different readings.So within the "Kanji" topic we could have sets that were for learning the individual Kanji, and then sets for learning words that are written in Kanji. The sets that are for purely learning individual Kanji we could teach people to be able to remember *at least* one reading of each kanji. We would also show them all of the other ones. This would be the first step towards learning a Kanji.Then the other sets would be for words written using Kanji. These would have the words written in a combination Kanji and Kana if necessary (is this correct?) in the main "word" field. They would then have the correct reading for that word in the pronunciation field. This would require you to learn the correct reading of the Kanji in that context.We can create a relationship of "dependency" between the word that is written using the Kanji and the kanji itself. This would mean that when you make wordset the kanji will always be inserted into the set before the word. It will also mean that when you are learning you will be able to click to see the kanji's page, together with its mems etc for that Kanji in case you have forgotten them. Does that sound good? Have I understood your points correctly? If so I can work it in to the conventions.
Great, I have edited the conventions above to include that. Thanks.I think that you are right that teaching all of the different readings of the kanji in context would be a better solution than trying to teach and test them all at the point of learning the kanji itself. First test on just one or two readings so that people can at least write the kanji and show that they know it. At the same time make them aware of the other readings, but don't try to hard to make the testing work for those. Then build on this nowledge when learning words which use the kanji in different readings.So within the "Kanji" topic we could have sets that were for learning the individual Kanji, and then sets for learning words that are written in Kanji. The sets that are for purely learning individual Kanji we could teach people to be able to remember *at least* one reading of each kanji. We would also show them all of the other ones. This would be the first step towards learning a Kanji.Then the other sets would be for words written using Kanji. These would have the words written in a combination Kanji and Kana if necessary (is this correct?) in the main "word" field. They would then have the correct reading for that word in the pronunciation field. This would require you to learn the correct reading of the Kanji in that context.We can create a relationship of "dependency" between the word that is written using the Kanji and the kanji itself. This would mean that when you make wordset the kanji will always be inserted into the set before the word. It will also mean that when you are learning you will be able to click to see the kanji's page, together with its mems etc for that Kanji in case you have forgotten them. Does that sound good? Have I understood your points correctly? If so I can work it in to the conventions.
benwhately 6 months ago
Great, I have edited the conventions above to include that. Thanks.I think that you are right that teaching all of the different readings of the kanji in context would be a better solution than trying to teach and test them all at the point of learning the kanji itself. First test on just one or two readings so that people can at least write the kanji and show that they know it. At the same time make them aware of the other readings, but don't try to hard to make the testing work for those. Then build on this nowledge when learning words which use the kanji in different readings.So within the "Kanji" topic we could have sets that were for learning the individual Kanji, and then sets for learning words that are written in Kanji. The sets that are for purely learning individual Kanji we could teach people to be able to remember *at least* one reading of each kanji. We would also show them all of the other ones. This would be the first step towards learning a Kanji.Then the other sets would be for words written using Kanji. These would have the words written in a combination Kanji and Kana if necessary (is this correct?) in the main "word" field. They would then have the correct reading for that word in the pronunciation field. This would require you to learn the correct reading of the Kanji in that context.We can create a relationship of "dependency" between the word that is written using the Kanji and the kanji itself. This would mean that when you make wordset the kanji will always be inserted into the set before the word. It will also mean that when you are learning you will be able to click to see the kanji's page, together with its mems etc for that Kanji in case you have forgotten them. Does that sound good? Have I understood your points correctly? If so I can work it in to the conventions.
Great, I have edited the conventions above to include that. Thanks.I think that you are right that teaching all of the different readings of the kanji in context would be a better solution than trying to teach and test them all at the point of learning the kanji itself. First test on just one or two readings so that people can at least write the kanji and show that they know it. At the same time make them aware of the other readings, but don't try to hard to make the testing work for those. Then build on this nowledge when learning words which use the kanji in different readings.So within the "Kanji" topic we could have sets that were for learning the individual Kanji, and then sets for learning words that are written in Kanji. The sets that are for purely learning individual Kanji we could teach people to be able to remember *at least* one reading of each kanji. We would also show them all of the other ones. This would be the first step towards learning a Kanji.Then the other sets would be for words written using Kanji. These would have the words written in a combination Kanji and Kana if necessary (is this correct?) in the main "word" field. They would then have the correct reading for that word in the pronunciation field. This would require you to learn the correct reading of the Kanji in that context.We can create a relationship of "dependency" between the word that is written using the Kanji and the kanji itself. This would mean that when you make wordset the kanji will always be inserted into the set before the word. It will also mean that when you are learning you will be able to click to see the kanji's page, together with its mems etc for that Kanji in case you have forgotten them. Does that sound good? Have I understood your points correctly? If so I can work it in to the conventions.
TL-AmericanUmlaut 5 months, 4 weeks ago
That sounds excellent.You are correct that there are words that require a combination of kanji and kana, and others that require only kanji. As a general rule, adjectives and verbs consist of a kanji with kana (the kanji is used to write the stem and the kana to write the ending) and nouns are written just using kanji.
That sounds excellent.You are correct that there are words that require a combination of kanji and kana, and others that require only kanji. As a general rule, adjectives and verbs consist of a kanji with kana (the kanji is used to write the stem and the kana to write the ending) and nouns are written just using kanji.
TL-AmericanUmlaut 5 months, 4 weeks ago
That sounds excellent.You are correct that there are words that require a combination of kanji and kana, and others that require only kanji. As a general rule, adjectives and verbs consist of a kanji with kana (the kanji is used to write the stem and the kana to write the ending) and nouns are written just using kanji.
That sounds excellent.You are correct that there are words that require a combination of kanji and kana, and others that require only kanji. As a general rule, adjectives and verbs consist of a kanji with kana (the kanji is used to write the stem and the kana to write the ending) and nouns are written just using kanji.
cacoethes 5 months ago
Hello, can you please explain why "to read" is used in your example for 読 while just "go" is used for 行く? I am looking at the jisho.org dictionary and 行く is specifically "to go" and 行 is just listed as "going". It is my understanding that as AmericanUmlaut said below, nouns are often written with just the kanji and then verbs are the ones written with all the extra conjugation and "stuff". It seems that when verbs are listed on most dictionaries they are shown with just るafter the kanji to indicate that it is a verb. I am still a bit baffled by this "to" while studying on Memrise. Some kanji have an english definiton with the "to" and others don't. When I am studying I keep getting words marked wrong even though I knew the meaning of the word, just because I didn't remember to add the "to", or I added a "to" when I shouldn't have. It seems like the "to" is added at random. Could we add a convention that standardizes this? Hopefully if I am completely misunderstanding this, someone can help me understand how it works. Thank you!
Hello, can you please explain why "to read" is used in your example for 読 while just "go" is used for 行く? I am looking at the jisho.org dictionary and 行く is specifically "to go" and 行 is just listed as "going". It is my understanding that as AmericanUmlaut said below, nouns are often written with just the kanji and then verbs are the ones written with all the extra conjugation and "stuff". It seems that when verbs are listed on most dictionaries they are shown with just るafter the kanji to indicate that it is a verb. I am still a bit baffled by this "to" while studying on Memrise. Some kanji have an english definiton with the "to" and others don't. When I am studying I keep getting words marked wrong even though I knew the meaning of the word, just because I didn't remember to add the "to", or I added a "to" when I shouldn't have. It seems like the "to" is added at random. Could we add a convention that standardizes this? Hopefully if I am completely misunderstanding this, someone can help me understand how it works. Thank you!
Dawnthorn 4 months, 2 weeks ago
I like your latest changes for Japanese. Did mess me up a little because I'd been putting kanji in the Japanese word field and kana in the pronunciation field. I've gone through and fixed mine. Would be nice to have some sort of thing that let you swap those two for all your existing items.I had two problems when making a bunch of cards.1. When I would go to edit my set (http://www.memrise.com/set/100... there's a place at the bottom where I can add new words. I would type in the kana and my English. If it is a word where I'm providing a new definition, I nearly always need to put in the Kanji. The fastest way to do this is to wait for the word to get added to my list and then a little message saying something like "you added ....." appears at the bottom and the .... is a link to the page for that specific word. So I click on that and then I add the Kanji. Really there should be a field for the kanji in the small add words form on the edit set page. That would speed things up immensely.2. Frequently I'm doing a card for the same word as someone else, but I don't agree with their definition. I think it would be best if I could add my own definition to their card. Then when people are creating sets, they would get the original definition by default, but could choose mine if they like it better. The way it is now, I'm making my own cards for the same words all the time which seems sort of a waste.
I like your latest changes for Japanese. Did mess me up a little because I'd been putting kanji in the Japanese word field and kana in the pronunciation field. I've gone through and fixed mine. Would be nice to have some sort of thing that let you swap those two for all your existing items.I had two problems when making a bunch of cards.1. When I would go to edit my set (http://www.memrise.com/set/100... there's a place at the bottom where I can add new words. I would type in the kana and my English. If it is a word where I'm providing a new definition, I nearly always need to put in the Kanji. The fastest way to do this is to wait for the word to get added to my list and then a little message saying something like "you added ....." appears at the bottom and the .... is a link to the page for that specific word. So I click on that and then I add the Kanji. Really there should be a field for the kanji in the small add words form on the edit set page. That would speed things up immensely.2. Frequently I'm doing a card for the same word as someone else, but I don't agree with their definition. I think it would be best if I could add my own definition to their card. Then when people are creating sets, they would get the original definition by default, but could choose mine if they like it better. The way it is now, I'm making my own cards for the same words all the time which seems sort of a waste.
Dawnthorn 4 months, 2 weeks ago
I like your latest changes for Japanese. Did mess me up a little because I'd been putting kanji in the Japanese word field and kana in the pronunciation field. I've gone through and fixed mine. Would be nice to have some sort of thing that let you swap those two for all your existing items.I had two problems when making a bunch of cards.1. When I would go to edit my set (http://www.memrise.com/set/100... there's a place at the bottom where I can add new words. I would type in the kana and my English. If it is a word where I'm providing a new definition, I nearly always need to put in the Kanji. The fastest way to do this is to wait for the word to get added to my list and then a little message saying something like "you added ....." appears at the bottom and the .... is a link to the page for that specific word. So I click on that and then I add the Kanji. Really there should be a field for the kanji in the small add words form on the edit set page. That would speed things up immensely.2. Frequently I'm doing a card for the same word as someone else, but I don't agree with their definition. I think it would be best if I could add my own definition to their card. Then when people are creating sets, they would get the original definition by default, but could choose mine if they like it better. The way it is now, I'm making my own cards for the same words all the time which seems sort of a waste.
I like your latest changes for Japanese. Did mess me up a little because I'd been putting kanji in the Japanese word field and kana in the pronunciation field. I've gone through and fixed mine. Would be nice to have some sort of thing that let you swap those two for all your existing items.I had two problems when making a bunch of cards.1. When I would go to edit my set (http://www.memrise.com/set/100... there's a place at the bottom where I can add new words. I would type in the kana and my English. If it is a word where I'm providing a new definition, I nearly always need to put in the Kanji. The fastest way to do this is to wait for the word to get added to my list and then a little message saying something like "you added ....." appears at the bottom and the .... is a link to the page for that specific word. So I click on that and then I add the Kanji. Really there should be a field for the kanji in the small add words form on the edit set page. That would speed things up immensely.2. Frequently I'm doing a card for the same word as someone else, but I don't agree with their definition. I think it would be best if I could add my own definition to their card. Then when people are creating sets, they would get the original definition by default, but could choose mine if they like it better. The way it is now, I'm making my own cards for the same words all the time which seems sort of a waste.
benwhately 4 months, 2 weeks ago
Very good points. 1 - if you want to add more than two fields at once, the fastest way to do this is using the spreadsheet uploader - if you write your word, definition and kanji into three columns, then you can upload them all at once. It is annoying to do this if you are only adding one or two, but if you are adding quite a few words then this is the best way to do it. Does that work for you? It is not quite as good as just having all the fields on display on the edit field, but it is difficult to implement that in a clean way that works well for all languages.2 - For the Japanese there is now a large central dictionary of over 20,000 words of checked content with kana, definition and kanji. I have uploaded this over the last couple of weeks and the topic is now a "moderated" topic which means that you can in fact upload just a spreadsheet of words in Hiragana and it will find the items for you from the database. These will have the main definition that is in the central dictionary. Other definitions that are being used for those words by other users will be added in as "alternatives". This means that you will be able to type them in typing tests and be marked correctly. We are planning to build in a feature such as you suggest where you can choose to select a particular meaning of a word to be the one that you are shown, and that you are tested on in multiple choice tests, but that will not happen immediately. If an item in the central dictionary has got a definition that you disagree with, or if you feel that there is another definition that should be the primary definition, then you should leave a comment on that word, and the topic curators will be informed and can then take a look at it and edit it if necessary. We will try to please as many people as possible with the choice of primary definition, but as I am sure you understand, it isn't always possible to please everyone! Which is why being able to individually specify the meaning that you want to be shown and tested on would be the ideal solution. But it is complex to implement, so for the meantime we will have to try to agree where possible.We will be starting a process of moderation whereby we check through all of the duplicate entries that are in the Japanese database and merge them into the checked items. Would you like to help with this process - that will give you some control over which definitions are used! PLease let me know if you would and I will talk you through the process. Thanks! Benben@memrise.com
Very good points. 1 - if you want to add more than two fields at once, the fastest way to do this is using the spreadsheet uploader - if you write your word, definition and kanji into three columns, then you can upload them all at once. It is annoying to do this if you are only adding one or two, but if you are adding quite a few words then this is the best way to do it. Does that work for you? It is not quite as good as just having all the fields on display on the edit field, but it is difficult to implement that in a clean way that works well for all languages.2 - For the Japanese there is now a large central dictionary of over 20,000 words of checked content with kana, definition and kanji. I have uploaded this over the last couple of weeks and the topic is now a "moderated" topic which means that you can in fact upload just a spreadsheet of words in Hiragana and it will find the items for you from the database. These will have the main definition that is in the central dictionary. Other definitions that are being used for those words by other users will be added in as "alternatives". This means that you will be able to type them in typing tests and be marked correctly. We are planning to build in a feature such as you suggest where you can choose to select a particular meaning of a word to be the one that you are shown, and that you are tested on in multiple choice tests, but that will not happen immediately. If an item in the central dictionary has got a definition that you disagree with, or if you feel that there is another definition that should be the primary definition, then you should leave a comment on that word, and the topic curators will be informed and can then take a look at it and edit it if necessary. We will try to please as many people as possible with the choice of primary definition, but as I am sure you understand, it isn't always possible to please everyone! Which is why being able to individually specify the meaning that you want to be shown and tested on would be the ideal solution. But it is complex to implement, so for the meantime we will have to try to agree where possible.We will be starting a process of moderation whereby we check through all of the duplicate entries that are in the Japanese database and merge them into the checked items. Would you like to help with this process - that will give you some control over which definitions are used! PLease let me know if you would and I will talk you through the process. Thanks! Benben@memrise.com
benwhately 4 months, 2 weeks ago
Very good points. 1 - if you want to add more than two fields at once, the fastest way to do this is using the spreadsheet uploader - if you write your word, definition and kanji into three columns, then you can upload them all at once. It is annoying to do this if you are only adding one or two, but if you are adding quite a few words then this is the best way to do it. Does that work for you? It is not quite as good as just having all the fields on display on the edit field, but it is difficult to implement that in a clean way that works well for all languages.2 - For the Japanese there is now a large central dictionary of over 20,000 words of checked content with kana, definition and kanji. I have uploaded this over the last couple of weeks and the topic is now a "moderated" topic which means that you can in fact upload just a spreadsheet of words in Hiragana and it will find the items for you from the database. These will have the main definition that is in the central dictionary. Other definitions that are being used for those words by other users will be added in as "alternatives". This means that you will be able to type them in typing tests and be marked correctly. We are planning to build in a feature such as you suggest where you can choose to select a particular meaning of a word to be the one that you are shown, and that you are tested on in multiple choice tests, but that will not happen immediately. If an item in the central dictionary has got a definition that you disagree with, or if you feel that there is another definition that should be the primary definition, then you should leave a comment on that word, and the topic curators will be informed and can then take a look at it and edit it if necessary. We will try to please as many people as possible with the choice of primary definition, but as I am sure you understand, it isn't always possible to please everyone! Which is why being able to individually specify the meaning that you want to be shown and tested on would be the ideal solution. But it is complex to implement, so for the meantime we will have to try to agree where possible.We will be starting a process of moderation whereby we check through all of the duplicate entries that are in the Japanese database and merge them into the checked items. Would you like to help with this process - that will give you some control over which definitions are used! PLease let me know if you would and I will talk you through the process. Thanks! Benben@memrise.com
Very good points. 1 - if you want to add more than two fields at once, the fastest way to do this is using the spreadsheet uploader - if you write your word, definition and kanji into three columns, then you can upload them all at once. It is annoying to do this if you are only adding one or two, but if you are adding quite a few words then this is the best way to do it. Does that work for you? It is not quite as good as just having all the fields on display on the edit field, but it is difficult to implement that in a clean way that works well for all languages.2 - For the Japanese there is now a large central dictionary of over 20,000 words of checked content with kana, definition and kanji. I have uploaded this over the last couple of weeks and the topic is now a "moderated" topic which means that you can in fact upload just a spreadsheet of words in Hiragana and it will find the items for you from the database. These will have the main definition that is in the central dictionary. Other definitions that are being used for those words by other users will be added in as "alternatives". This means that you will be able to type them in typing tests and be marked correctly. We are planning to build in a feature such as you suggest where you can choose to select a particular meaning of a word to be the one that you are shown, and that you are tested on in multiple choice tests, but that will not happen immediately. If an item in the central dictionary has got a definition that you disagree with, or if you feel that there is another definition that should be the primary definition, then you should leave a comment on that word, and the topic curators will be informed and can then take a look at it and edit it if necessary. We will try to please as many people as possible with the choice of primary definition, but as I am sure you understand, it isn't always possible to please everyone! Which is why being able to individually specify the meaning that you want to be shown and tested on would be the ideal solution. But it is complex to implement, so for the meantime we will have to try to agree where possible.We will be starting a process of moderation whereby we check through all of the duplicate entries that are in the Japanese database and merge them into the checked items. Would you like to help with this process - that will give you some control over which definitions are used! PLease let me know if you would and I will talk you through the process. Thanks! Benben@memrise.com
phoenixphreak 1 month, 4 weeks ago
Bump!
And I would like to help with database organizing. What can I do to help? And would it be possible for me to help curate the Japanese Language section?
Bump!
And I would like to help with database organizing. What can I do to help? And would it be possible for me to help curate the Japanese Language section?
When I try to romanize the small letters I never get it correct. I put down "shyounen" for しょうねん but it's only nearly correct. I've also tried "shixyounen" and "shiyounen" but neither are right either.
15 comments
Latest 1 month, 4 weeks ago
Robbie.C 6 months, 1 week ago
I don't think there is because every language has a different way of representing sounds with the roman alphabet. The good news is that memrise is working to standardize within the individual languages. That will help prevent multiple entries. I get frustrated with that too.
I don't think there is because every language has a different way of representing sounds with the roman alphabet. The good news is that memrise is working to standardize within the individual languages. That will help prevent multiple entries. I get frustrated with that too.
Robbie.C 6 months, 1 week ago
I don't think there is because every language has a different way of representing sounds with the roman alphabet. The good news is that memrise is working to standardize within the individual languages. That will help prevent multiple entries. I get frustrated with that too.
I don't think there is because every language has a different way of representing sounds with the roman alphabet. The good news is that memrise is working to standardize within the individual languages. That will help prevent multiple entries. I get frustrated with that too.
TL-qoin 6 months, 1 week ago
Try "shounen", should give you the correct answer. Remove the y when romajizining the しゃ しょ しゅ、ちゃ ちょ ちゅ etc. Works for me.
Try "shounen", should give you the correct answer. Remove the y when romajizining the しゃ しょ しゅ、ちゃ ちょ ちゅ etc. Works for me.
TL-qoin 6 months, 1 week ago
Try "shounen", should give you the correct answer. Remove the y when romajizining the しゃ しょ しゅ、ちゃ ちょ ちゅ etc. Works for me.
Try "shounen", should give you the correct answer. Remove the y when romajizining the しゃ しょ しゅ、ちゃ ちょ ちゅ etc. Works for me.
sapsari 5 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm having a similar problem. I type "jidousha" for "じどうしゃ" but it keeps saying incorrect, not even nearby.
I'm having a similar problem. I type "jidousha" for "じどうしゃ" but it keeps saying incorrect, not even nearby.
sapsari 5 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm having a similar problem. I type "jidousha" for "じどうしゃ" but it keeps saying incorrect, not even nearby.
I'm having a similar problem. I type "jidousha" for "じどうしゃ" but it keeps saying incorrect, not even nearby.
benwhately 5 months, 1 week ago
Apologies for this - we don't at the moment have any real policy for accepting romaji. Most of our users are keen to only type in kana, and so we have not yet devoted the time to getting the romaji input working consistently. We will try to do this soon.
Apologies for this - we don't at the moment have any real policy for accepting romaji. Most of our users are keen to only type in kana, and so we have not yet devoted the time to getting the romaji input working consistently. We will try to do this soon.
benwhately 5 months, 1 week ago
Apologies for this - we don't at the moment have any real policy for accepting romaji. Most of our users are keen to only type in kana, and so we have not yet devoted the time to getting the romaji input working consistently. We will try to do this soon.
Apologies for this - we don't at the moment have any real policy for accepting romaji. Most of our users are keen to only type in kana, and so we have not yet devoted the time to getting the romaji input working consistently. We will try to do this soon.
benwhately 4 months ago
I am sorry about this - at the moment we only accept the actual Kana as answers. If you need help in typing in Kana, please take a look at the FAQs - http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap...ThanksBen
I am sorry about this - at the moment we only accept the actual Kana as answers. If you need help in typing in Kana, please take a look at the FAQs - http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap...ThanksBen
benwhately 4 months ago
I am sorry about this - at the moment we only accept the actual Kana as answers. If you need help in typing in Kana, please take a look at the FAQs - http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap...ThanksBen
I am sorry about this - at the moment we only accept the actual Kana as answers. If you need help in typing in Kana, please take a look at the FAQs - http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap...ThanksBen
MirkoSon 2 months, 2 weeks ago
it probably wants something like "zidousiya", no matter how this doesn't make much sense. Unfortunately it doesn't use the common Hepburn romanization.
it probably wants something like "zidousiya", no matter how this doesn't make much sense. Unfortunately it doesn't use the common Hepburn romanization.
MirkoSon 2 months, 2 weeks ago
it probably wants something like "zidousiya", no matter how this doesn't make much sense. Unfortunately it doesn't use the common Hepburn romanization.
it probably wants something like "zidousiya", no matter how this doesn't make much sense. Unfortunately it doesn't use the common Hepburn romanization.
alhoffmn 1 month, 4 weeks ago
I am gradually learning the crazy Romanji - when you type a word "incorrectly" memrise takes you back to the original card. There you can practice typing. Where I am totally stumped is where the card "expects kanji" - mac kotoeri doesn't seem to work here.
I am gradually learning the crazy Romanji - when you type a word "incorrectly" memrise takes you back to the original card. There you can practice typing. Where I am totally stumped is where the card "expects kanji" - mac kotoeri doesn't seem to work here.
I know I could make a much larger word list beforehand on a spreadsheet, OR I could do the regular site-based entry, then download the spreadsheet, edit and reupload it. But it can be a hassle to do the second one and the first is incomplete.
As I add words to my wordlist, I try to use the words already in the dictionary so as to immediately link in to all their informational goodness (mems, alternatives, kanji, etc.). But if I do need to add a new word, there is no way to easily add in Kanji and I would be forced to do the download and edit function.
Would it be possible to add an input field for kanji as I add in new words for my lists?
As I add words to my wordlist, I try to use the words already in the dictionary so as to immediately link in to all their informational goodness (mems, alternatives, kanji, etc.). But if I do need to add a new word, there is no way to easily add in Kanji and I would be forced to do the download and edit function.
Would it be possible to add an input field for kanji as I add in new words for my lists?
2 comments
Latest 1 month, 4 weeks ago
jlptbootcamp 1 month, 4 weeks ago
This is probably coming with the new wiki/edit system. We just have to be patient unfortunately.
This is probably coming with the new wiki/edit system. We just have to be patient unfortunately.
There are several Japanese Wordlists that use dictionary/word entries that have been input incorrectly. For example:
http://www.memrise.com/item...
The Japanese = 歯
The Kanji = は
The word lists that use entries like this one usually use many many other words that also are not categorized correctly.
See: http://www.memrise.com/set/...
Is this okay? It doesn't seem to make sense to have many terms input in the Dictionary two times, with opposite inputs and the Kanji or 'regular' Japanese being backwards...
http://www.memrise.com/item...
The Japanese = 歯
The Kanji = は
The word lists that use entries like this one usually use many many other words that also are not categorized correctly.
See: http://www.memrise.com/set/...
Is this okay? It doesn't seem to make sense to have many terms input in the Dictionary two times, with opposite inputs and the Kanji or 'regular' Japanese being backwards...
12 comments
Latest 2 months ago
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
Yeah, we are trying to contact the owners of these lists to either get them to re-upload correctly or move the lists to another topic because they don't conform to the conventions. There are three main lists that I can see:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
I've left comments on a few of these, but we are going to have to do something about them because they are filling up the moderation cue :)
We have to create a new topic and send them there or possibly send them to the Japanese-kanji topic.
Yeah, we are trying to contact the owners of these lists to either get them to re-upload correctly or move the lists to another topic because they don't conform to the conventions. There are three main lists that I can see:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
I've left comments on a few of these, but we are going to have to do something about them because they are filling up the moderation cue :)
We have to create a new topic and send them there or possibly send them to the Japanese-kanji topic.
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
It looks like these would have a better home in the Japanese-Kanji topic. Should we just start moving them over there? What are everyone's thoughts?
It looks like these would have a better home in the Japanese-Kanji topic. Should we just start moving them over there? What are everyone's thoughts?
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
I think we should either move them or just REmove them completely. There's no use doing it this way - it creates confusion and frustrations and the messages just won't stop.
I think we should either move them or just REmove them completely. There's no use doing it this way - it creates confusion and frustrations and the messages just won't stop.
phoenixphreak 2 months ago
As they 1) didn't follow the guidelines for uploading and 2) are blatantly incorrect (the Kanji is hiragana = wrong),
I think they should just be deleted...
As they 1) didn't follow the guidelines for uploading and 2) are blatantly incorrect (the Kanji is hiragana = wrong),
I think they should just be deleted...
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
Removing them is going to cause more messages :) Anyway, I informed most of the course owners and if I don't get a response in the next 48 hours, we'll start giving them the boot to another topic. If you see any of these courses, be sure to post it here and we can decide on where they should go or if they should be deleted.
Some of these courses have a lot of users, I don't want to just pull the rug out from underneath them without at least giving them some time to respond. The conventions aren't exactly front and center and can be a bit confusing.
Removing them is going to cause more messages :) Anyway, I informed most of the course owners and if I don't get a response in the next 48 hours, we'll start giving them the boot to another topic. If you see any of these courses, be sure to post it here and we can decide on where they should go or if they should be deleted.
Some of these courses have a lot of users, I don't want to just pull the rug out from underneath them without at least giving them some time to respond. The conventions aren't exactly front and center and can be a bit confusing.
phoenixphreak 2 months ago
I appreciate all your work as a Curator Jlptbootcamp, but I think maybe we need a response from the official Memrise designers. I know that the conventions aren't front and center, but they are still very important, and it detracts a lot for everyone who gets used to these incorrect entries.
Either way, I'll continue to mark on entries and wordlists when I see them with mistakes, but I think Memrise should make the conventions much more clear for those adding words or uploading spreadsheet wordlists.
I appreciate all your work as a Curator Jlptbootcamp, but I think maybe we need a response from the official Memrise designers. I know that the conventions aren't front and center, but they are still very important, and it detracts a lot for everyone who gets used to these incorrect entries.
Either way, I'll continue to mark on entries and wordlists when I see them with mistakes, but I think Memrise should make the conventions much more clear for those adding words or uploading spreadsheet wordlists.
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
Yeah, maybe they can put a filter to block kanji during the upload process. Anyway, I've already talked to Ben about this very problem and he told me to try to message all of them and provide them with options before taking an axe to them. I think we need to try to encourage contribution as much as we can even if it is a little off, these folks are just trying to make memrise a better place :)
Anyway, I sent them packing and notified them via discussions, it should help clean some things up. If you see any courses like this, let's try to jump on them before they get too many users.
In the future, any deck that has kanji for the 'Japanese', should probably just get shipped over to Japanese - Kanji, where the conventions are setup for this. I don't see any harm in that do you? The process is completely reversible.
There are a lot of older decks that were setup before the conventions were in place and I'm still not sure what to do with those.
Maybe we can contact all those that are using the course that it will be discontinued. I'm talking about the old N2 course and the like:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
As for the conventions not being front and center, they are working on a new wiki infrastructure with some improved word creation tools that will make things a lot clearer and these types of problems should melt away.
ETA for said wiki/word creation tools? Hopefully pretty soon
Yeah, maybe they can put a filter to block kanji during the upload process. Anyway, I've already talked to Ben about this very problem and he told me to try to message all of them and provide them with options before taking an axe to them. I think we need to try to encourage contribution as much as we can even if it is a little off, these folks are just trying to make memrise a better place :)
Anyway, I sent them packing and notified them via discussions, it should help clean some things up. If you see any courses like this, let's try to jump on them before they get too many users.
In the future, any deck that has kanji for the 'Japanese', should probably just get shipped over to Japanese - Kanji, where the conventions are setup for this. I don't see any harm in that do you? The process is completely reversible.
There are a lot of older decks that were setup before the conventions were in place and I'm still not sure what to do with those.
Maybe we can contact all those that are using the course that it will be discontinued. I'm talking about the old N2 course and the like:
http://www.memrise.com/set/...
As for the conventions not being front and center, they are working on a new wiki infrastructure with some improved word creation tools that will make things a lot clearer and these types of problems should melt away.
ETA for said wiki/word creation tools? Hopefully pretty soon
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
Seeing while I'm currently doing the Kore set, nothing there is conform to the rules (parts of speech are Verb, Adjective and so on, many Kanji missing, many dictionary entries seem to be unique), this might cause a lot of trouble - especially since this set is one of the most valuable ones. If I was to reproduce it properly or fix it, it would take a lot of time.. 6000 words are quite a few days of nonstop work ;)
Seeing while I'm currently doing the Kore set, nothing there is conform to the rules (parts of speech are Verb, Adjective and so on, many Kanji missing, many dictionary entries seem to be unique), this might cause a lot of trouble - especially since this set is one of the most valuable ones. If I was to reproduce it properly or fix it, it would take a lot of time.. 6000 words are quite a few days of nonstop work ;)
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
And that is why it is not featured :)
I'm currently cleaning up the N2 Community Deck so there is a clean and clear example of what the courses should look like. The kore course is slowly getting merged in the process so it should get kanji inserted into it and some other improvements as we edit the N2 community deck.
If you could focus on the N2 deck, that would help more I think, after we are finished with the N2. We should start N1, which should cover all of the kore words and then during the merging process they will be automatically corrected and you won't have to do double work.
And that is why it is not featured :)
I'm currently cleaning up the N2 Community Deck so there is a clean and clear example of what the courses should look like. The kore course is slowly getting merged in the process so it should get kanji inserted into it and some other improvements as we edit the N2 community deck.
If you could focus on the N2 deck, that would help more I think, after we are finished with the N2. We should start N1, which should cover all of the kore words and then during the merging process they will be automatically corrected and you won't have to do double work.
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
The N1 includes the Core 6k? There's not a lot of overlap between the Kore and N2, despite similar volume.
Ahh... it would greatly help to have that new Wiki system at work. We could work on those words and be sure they won't get deleted eventually, because another version already exists...
The N1 includes the Core 6k? There's not a lot of overlap between the Kore and N2, despite similar volume.
Ahh... it would greatly help to have that new Wiki system at work. We could work on those words and be sure they won't get deleted eventually, because another version already exists...
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
I think things will be a lot clearer with it, we can see who changed what and things will be more un-doable. Right now, the merging system is a little troublesome because it is one-way.
I'm sure N1 includes the core 6k, it is rumored to be 18,000 words although most lists online are for the old test (10,000 words).
I think things will be a lot clearer with it, we can see who changed what and things will be more un-doable. Right now, the merging system is a little troublesome because it is one-way.
I'm sure N1 includes the core 6k, it is rumored to be 18,000 words although most lists online are for the old test (10,000 words).
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
Yes, I also know of the 10.000ish... 18.000 would be more words than I know in English, and I can do and say things in that language I can't hope to accomplish in Japanese yet :p
20.000 is said to be the average vocabulary of a college graduate. :) I guess at 10.000, you'll be able to perpetuum-mobile your way forward without having to learn vocab actively anymore (or at least not to that degree).
But if it IS 18.000, these 6000 sure are included, else we'd learn some pretty obscure things ^_^;
Yes, I also know of the 10.000ish... 18.000 would be more words than I know in English, and I can do and say things in that language I can't hope to accomplish in Japanese yet :p
20.000 is said to be the average vocabulary of a college graduate. :) I guess at 10.000, you'll be able to perpetuum-mobile your way forward without having to learn vocab actively anymore (or at least not to that degree).
But if it IS 18.000, these 6000 sure are included, else we'd learn some pretty obscure things ^_^;
http://www.memrise.com/item...
It looks like there is a dictionary entry with the English meaning "contribution": http://www.memrise.com/item..., but in my upload the English field was "donation". How can I either edit my variant or merge it with the dictionary entry? At the moment there is no English meaning showing at all in my list.
It looks like there is a dictionary entry with the English meaning "contribution": http://www.memrise.com/item..., but in my upload the English field was "donation". How can I either edit my variant or merge it with the dictionary entry? At the moment there is no English meaning showing at all in my list.
4 comments
Latest 2 months ago
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
They are two different dictionaries. You uploaded your set to the Japanese - Kanji radicals set? or maybe it was moved there by a moderator. Anyway, you can't use words from the Japanese topic in the Japanese - Kanji Radical topic.
I'm not too familiar with the Japanese - Kanji Radical topic, but it looks like there isn't a space for English.
They are two different dictionaries. You uploaded your set to the Japanese - Kanji radicals set? or maybe it was moved there by a moderator. Anyway, you can't use words from the Japanese topic in the Japanese - Kanji Radical topic.
I'm not too familiar with the Japanese - Kanji Radical topic, but it looks like there isn't a space for English.
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
If you're not a curator and you use a word from the dictionary in your wordlist, you can't edit it.
There are 2 possible solutions to it, if you want to edit things yourself:
- Delete the dictionary terms and make your own ones
- Become a curator
I'd just take the dictionary entries and, if you find an error, let us know about it.
If you're not a curator and you use a word from the dictionary in your wordlist, you can't edit it.
There are 2 possible solutions to it, if you want to edit things yourself:
- Delete the dictionary terms and make your own ones
- Become a curator
I'd just take the dictionary entries and, if you find an error, let us know about it.
Xarienne 2 months ago
It is not an error as such. I still can study the reading.
What happened, is that instead of adding words from your dictionaries I had to delete them, because when I uploaded my .xls with 3 columns "Kanji", "Hiragana" and "English", I got three copies for each word (two for rare words and place-names). I guess I have deleted the wrong copy in that case. All other words I opened to edit so far had English meaning and were editable.
The problem is, the word order for this course matters very much, because kanji readings are grouped by signal primitive.
If I delete the word, will I be able to place a new copy in the exact same place?
I don't mind being a curator for the "Japanese - Kanji Readings" (looking that there are none), but I cannot commit much time, unfortunately.
It is not an error as such. I still can study the reading.
What happened, is that instead of adding words from your dictionaries I had to delete them, because when I uploaded my .xls with 3 columns "Kanji", "Hiragana" and "English", I got three copies for each word (two for rare words and place-names). I guess I have deleted the wrong copy in that case. All other words I opened to edit so far had English meaning and were editable.
The problem is, the word order for this course matters very much, because kanji readings are grouped by signal primitive.
If I delete the word, will I be able to place a new copy in the exact same place?
I don't mind being a curator for the "Japanese - Kanji Readings" (looking that there are none), but I cannot commit much time, unfortunately.
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
You won't be able to put the word back in sequence I think. You'd have to delete the entire course and re-upload it. Anyway, we can't edit the Japanese - Kanji Readings topic because we aren't curators over there, (nobody is). I think you might be able to solve these issues if you are a curator. It only involves as much or as little work as you want to do.
You might want to wait, as there is a new word creation/wiki system that is coming soon that might simplify this and make it easier for you to edit.
You won't be able to put the word back in sequence I think. You'd have to delete the entire course and re-upload it. Anyway, we can't edit the Japanese - Kanji Readings topic because we aren't curators over there, (nobody is). I think you might be able to solve these issues if you are a curator. It only involves as much or as little work as you want to do.
You might want to wait, as there is a new word creation/wiki system that is coming soon that might simplify this and make it easier for you to edit.
My mem for the word かえる has been downvoted and I was wondering if anyone had any feedback as to why. Is there an error with it? Can you play the video? I am pretty sure that she's saying 帰って, but maybe that's incorrect?
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Thanks :)
http://www.memrise.com/item...
Thanks :)
1 comment
Latest 2 months ago
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
Nope, you got it correct. Maybe some people dislike anime or whatever. There's nothing wrong with the mem, you even wrote out the sentence the character is shouting.
Nope, you got it correct. Maybe some people dislike anime or whatever. There's nothing wrong with the mem, you even wrote out the sentence the character is shouting.
I don't see any difference between these two words. Both are verbs meaning the same thing. Can someone explain, please?
3 comments
Latest 2 months ago
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
I love questions like these Nil.
The differences between these words is actually pretty simple. せんたく refers to laundry and washing clothes only. While あらう refers to just about every kind of washing (hands, car, dog, etc...), including washing clothes.
A helpful thing to do is check the example sentences with a good dictionary like jisho.org, usually the differences become pretty obvious:
あらう
せんたく
I added a mem with this info to the words to help you out. I also changed せんたく to mean 'washing (clothes)' for a little more clarity.
I love questions like these Nil.
The differences between these words is actually pretty simple. せんたく refers to laundry and washing clothes only. While あらう refers to just about every kind of washing (hands, car, dog, etc...), including washing clothes.
A helpful thing to do is check the example sentences with a good dictionary like jisho.org, usually the differences become pretty obvious:
あらう
せんたく
I added a mem with this info to the words to help you out. I also changed せんたく to mean 'washing (clothes)' for a little more clarity.
Was just wondering how active the curators of the japanese section were?
If you ever needed some more people to help out, I am sure there are others who would like to pick up the job.
Some of the Japanese courses need some refinements, and I am not to sure where exactly I should be posting for edits: Here? or in the Comment section of the course?
Thanks again,
Forxnat
If you ever needed some more people to help out, I am sure there are others who would like to pick up the job.
Some of the Japanese courses need some refinements, and I am not to sure where exactly I should be posting for edits: Here? or in the Comment section of the course?
Thanks again,
Forxnat
3 comments
Latest 2 months ago
phoenixphreak 2 months ago
I am interested in helping moderate or curate. If there is a FAQ or short tutorial, I will definitely read/watch/study it.
I am interested in helping moderate or curate. If there is a FAQ or short tutorial, I will definitely read/watch/study it.
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
We are mostly pretty active, if by chance you think we are asleep at the wheel, shoot me an email -> mac@jlptbootcamp.com and I should be able to patch up anything small within 24 hours.
I'm currently checking these forums daily now though, so I at least should be able to fix anything that needs fixing.
We are mostly pretty active, if by chance you think we are asleep at the wheel, shoot me an email -> mac@jlptbootcamp.com and I should be able to patch up anything small within 24 hours.
I'm currently checking these forums daily now though, so I at least should be able to fix anything that needs fixing.
ikenaiAndi 2 months ago
I was away over the weekend (internet down), but I'm pretty active as well. Posts on this forum will surely be seen pretty quickly.
And you're a J curator, too ^^
I was away over the weekend (internet down), but I'm pretty active as well. Posts on this forum will surely be seen pretty quickly.
And you're a J curator, too ^^
I merged these two duplicates together. ええ meaning 'yes' and 'grr' are now one word. I did add a video that explains the intonation differences:
http://www.youtube.com/watc...
Hopefully that will solve a lot of issues and clarify a few things for everybody. And now people can either upvote it or downvote, but at least they'll know the difference :)
There are some mems that now don't serve any reason though. I especially don't appreciate ikenaiAndi's. I'm wondering if I should just blank them out and people can thumb them down or what. There is no way for us to delete them I don't think.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
The two せっけん entries have also been merged resolving that issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watc...
Hopefully that will solve a lot of issues and clarify a few things for everybody. And now people can either upvote it or downvote, but at least they'll know the difference :)
There are some mems that now don't serve any reason though. I especially don't appreciate ikenaiAndi's. I'm wondering if I should just blank them out and people can thumb them down or what. There is no way for us to delete them I don't think.
http://www.memrise.com/item...
The two せっけん entries have also been merged resolving that issue.
3 comments
Latest 2 months ago
cacoethes 2 months ago
Thank you for the video! :) Very helpful. ^.^
I am wondering.. is this the same thing as http://youtu.be/Tiu5fJMI4UE that you always hear in anime?
Thank you for the video! :) Very helpful. ^.^
I am wondering.. is this the same thing as http://youtu.be/Tiu5fJMI4UE that you always hear in anime?
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
They are one in the same :), maybe you should add that as a mem!
Pretty funny, thanks for sharing.
They are one in the same :), maybe you should add that as a mem!
Pretty funny, thanks for sharing.
Is there anyway to equate ~ with ～ ? I use the grave accent to switch between my IME's and it is a hassle to have to switch IME's, type ～, backspace a bit, switch IME's again, type the kana, and finally submit my answer.
Example:
ひと～
～いち
Example:
ひと～
～いち
11 comments
Latest 2 months ago
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 1 week ago
i will see if i can find them and put the ~ as alternative.edit: i set ひと~ and ~いち as alternative answers. please let me know if it worked. now both tilde versions should be accepted.
i will see if i can find them and put the ~ as alternative.edit: i set ひと~ and ~いち as alternative answers. please let me know if it worked. now both tilde versions should be accepted.
phoenixphreak 2 months, 1 week ago
It's good that you could fix that one item, but I think we need to fix the general input acceptance for the site. I know my work computer with IME has a different tilde than my MacBook at home. So at work I get yellow (almost correct) answers, while at home I can input the item completely correctly...
It's good that you could fix that one item, but I think we need to fix the general input acceptance for the site. I know my work computer with IME has a different tilde than my MacBook at home. So at work I get yellow (almost correct) answers, while at home I can input the item completely correctly...
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 1 week ago
I agree. The tilde has to be there to indicate how and where to use it, but for learning purposes, it's not optimal. If "technical peanuts" get in your way where only comprehension counts, it's a pain in the ass. If you find stuff that has to be fixed, let me know... there can't be too much of that sort, at least in Japanese. Be glad it's not German, where almost everything could be used as a prefix or suffix - ouch :p
I agree. The tilde has to be there to indicate how and where to use it, but for learning purposes, it's not optimal. If "technical peanuts" get in your way where only comprehension counts, it's a pain in the ass. If you find stuff that has to be fixed, let me know... there can't be too much of that sort, at least in Japanese. Be glad it's not German, where almost everything could be used as a prefix or suffix - ouch :p
Tchael 2 months, 1 week ago
Those two have been fixed, thank you.Although I do agree with phoenix - although thankfully I don't have to use a Mac and get answered 'partially' accepted.
Those two have been fixed, thank you.Although I do agree with phoenix - although thankfully I don't have to use a Mac and get answered 'partially' accepted.
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 1 week ago
To have it fixed permanently across the board is out of my reach. What I can do as a curator, is editing single items, moving them around, adding audio and stuff. If you find more of those, please let me know. I'll take care of them.
To have it fixed permanently across the board is out of my reach. What I can do as a curator, is editing single items, moving them around, adding audio and stuff. If you find more of those, please let me know. I'll take care of them.
Tchael 2 months, 1 week ago
I wasn't talking for you. I know the limitations of a curator. ;)I was talking for Ben & Co (Sorry rest of crew, =\ don't know other names as well)
I wasn't talking for you. I know the limitations of a curator. ;)I was talking for Ben & Co (Sorry rest of crew, =\ don't know other names as well)
benwhately 2 months, 1 week ago
Sorry about this - we are going to have a comprehensive go at fixing all the Japanese input issues very soon - there are just a few tasks to get past before we can move onto that, but it is nearing the top of the list. APologies for the inconvenience,Best wishesBen
Sorry about this - we are going to have a comprehensive go at fixing all the Japanese input issues very soon - there are just a few tasks to get past before we can move onto that, but it is nearing the top of the list. APologies for the inconvenience,Best wishesBen
Tchael 2 months, 1 week ago
It's fine and I understand. =PWhile you're reading threads I'll stray off-topic on this one.In the Japanese - French section there is a mistake with トイレ where the 'kanji' is "toire" when it should be non-existent (or トイレ if it MUST exist)http://www.memrise.com/item/22... The word in question^I'm trying to fix the JLPT wordset to either use the standard Japanese トイレ (Not the Japanese-French) or to fix the Japanese-French one... ^^;
It's fine and I understand. =PWhile you're reading threads I'll stray off-topic on this one.In the Japanese - French section there is a mistake with トイレ where the 'kanji' is "toire" when it should be non-existent (or トイレ if it MUST exist)http://www.memrise.com/item/22... The word in question^I'm trying to fix the JLPT wordset to either use the standard Japanese トイレ (Not the Japanese-French) or to fix the Japanese-French one... ^^;
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
Is it possible to have the tilde show up, but not be required for typing? I mean I don't think I ever use a tilde normally, so it is a bit difficult to type.
Is it possible to have the tilde show up, but not be required for typing? I mean I don't think I ever use a tilde normally, so it is a bit difficult to type.
ex:
戦う = たたかう
延びる = のびる
戦う = たたかう
延びる = のびる
4 comments
Latest 2 months ago
pinksharpii 4 months, 2 weeks ago
You could try readthekanji.com I believe only N5 and N4 are free after the free trial. On memrise, I'm not sure
You could try readthekanji.com I believe only N5 and N4 are free after the free trial. On memrise, I'm not sure
pinksharpii 4 months, 2 weeks ago
You could try readthekanji.com I believe only N5 and N4 are free after the free trial. On memrise, I'm not sure
You could try readthekanji.com I believe only N5 and N4 are free after the free trial. On memrise, I'm not sure
jlptbootcamp 2 months ago
That's what the Japanese - Kanji Readings topic is for I think:
http://www.memrise.com/topi...
It's a little sparse, but it is setup for that.
Looks like that core 2000 deck needs to get migrated there.
That's what the Japanese - Kanji Readings topic is for I think:
http://www.memrise.com/topi...
It's a little sparse, but it is setup for that.
Looks like that core 2000 deck needs to get migrated there.
I tried creating some courses based on lyrics from songs. I would love for people to try them out and give some feedback. I think it works best if you listen to the song and follow along with the lyrics as you learn each word.
I was also wondering if I should include the conjugated forms of the verbs. It can be a little confusing to hear "叱って" (shikatte, te form) in the song but then study the plain verb 叱る. I think it would be cool to have the card 叱って in the Memrise dictionary with its parent listed as 叱る but I'm not sure the best way to go about doing that.. and if it should even be done?
(Links to courses are below, Thanks!)
I was also wondering if I should include the conjugated forms of the verbs. It can be a little confusing to hear "叱って" (shikatte, te form) in the song but then study the plain verb 叱る. I think it would be cool to have the card 叱って in the Memrise dictionary with its parent listed as 叱る but I'm not sure the best way to go about doing that.. and if it should even be done?
(Links to courses are below, Thanks!)
9 comments
Latest 2 months ago
cacoethes 3 months, 3 weeks ago
Tabi no Tochuu (Spice and Wolf opening theme song):Course: http://www.memrise.com/set/100...Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Lyrics: http://www.animelyrics.com/ani...Bouken Desho Desho (Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya opening theme song):Course: http://www.memrise.com/set/... http://www.youtube.com/watc... http://www.animelyrics.com/... no Dengon (Kiki's Delivery Service opening theme song):Course: http://www.memrise.com/set/... http://youtu.be/4-YSN1lLzJs... http://www.animelyrics.com/ani...
Tabi no Tochuu (Spice and Wolf opening theme song):Course: http://www.memrise.com/set/100...Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Lyrics: http://www.animelyrics.com/ani...Bouken Desho Desho (Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya opening theme song):Course: http://www.memrise.com/set/... http://www.youtube.com/watc... http://www.animelyrics.com/... no Dengon (Kiki's Delivery Service opening theme song):Course: http://www.memrise.com/set/... http://youtu.be/4-YSN1lLzJs... http://www.animelyrics.com/ani...
cacoethes 3 months, 3 weeks ago
Ichiban no Takaramono (Angel Beats):Course: http://www.memrise.com/set/... http://youtu.be/OLDptTV-h14... http://honya-ch.com/2010/06/26...
Ichiban no Takaramono (Angel Beats):Course: http://www.memrise.com/set/... http://youtu.be/OLDptTV-h14... http://honya-ch.com/2010/06/26...
cacoethes 3 months, 3 weeks ago
Soyokaze ga Sougen wo Naderu You ni by Kokia:Course: http://www.memrise.com/set/... http://youtu.be/WOBPSA2mdKY... http://kokialyric.livejourn... Your Heart by SHINee:Course: http://www.memrise.com/set/... http://youtu.be/GJu8qvHcDok... http://kinna84.livejournal.com...
Soyokaze ga Sougen wo Naderu You ni by Kokia:Course: http://www.memrise.com/set/... http://youtu.be/WOBPSA2mdKY... http://kokialyric.livejourn... Your Heart by SHINee:Course: http://www.memrise.com/set/... http://youtu.be/GJu8qvHcDok... http://kinna84.livejournal.com...
Forxnat 3 months, 1 week ago
Just wanted to say brilliant and idea, and grea job! :)If you need any help with this I'll try and put aside some time to help where needed.
Just wanted to say brilliant and idea, and grea job! :)If you need any help with this I'll try and put aside some time to help where needed.
Forxnat 3 months, 1 week ago
Just wanted to say brilliant and idea, and grea job! :)If you need any help with this I'll try and put aside some time to help where needed.
Just wanted to say brilliant and idea, and grea job! :)If you need any help with this I'll try and put aside some time to help where needed.
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 3 weeks ago
i like it, thanks for this.i think learning the words in their dictionary form is good, however. how would you put the meaning of なっちゃう with a simple english term? if you put it なる, perfect. one should learn the grammar behind that separately anyways IMHO :)
i like it, thanks for this.i think learning the words in their dictionary form is good, however. how would you put the meaning of なっちゃう with a simple english term? if you put it なる, perfect. one should learn the grammar behind that separately anyways IMHO :)
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 3 weeks ago
i like it, thanks for this.i think learning the words in their dictionary form is good, however. how would you put the meaning of なっちゃう with a simple english term? if you put it なる, perfect. one should learn the grammar behind that separately anyways IMHO :)
i like it, thanks for this.i think learning the words in their dictionary form is good, however. how would you put the meaning of なっちゃう with a simple english term? if you put it なる, perfect. one should learn the grammar behind that separately anyways IMHO :)
LauraM 2 months, 1 week ago
Just wanted to add that I think this is a great idea! Thanks for the courses you've put up already, cacoethes!I only know one of the songs that you've done so far, so I put up a course of my own for one of my favorite Japanese songs: Robinson, by Spitzhttp://www.memrise.com/set/100...Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watc... let me know if ou have any feedback. My Japanese is only slightly more than nonexistent, so there might be some mistakes. I'll probably do more songs later.
Just wanted to add that I think this is a great idea! Thanks for the courses you've put up already, cacoethes!I only know one of the songs that you've done so far, so I put up a course of my own for one of my favorite Japanese songs: Robinson, by Spitzhttp://www.memrise.com/set/100...Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watc... let me know if ou have any feedback. My Japanese is only slightly more than nonexistent, so there might be some mistakes. I'll probably do more songs later.
cacoethes 2 months ago
Thanks Laura, that song is gorgeous! I am really glad you shared it with us. I have been listening to it all day. :) I hope you will make more song courses. I love learning from them and that was an awesome song to learn with. ^.^
Thanks Laura, that song is gorgeous! I am really glad you shared it with us. I have been listening to it all day. :) I hope you will make more song courses. I love learning from them and that was an awesome song to learn with. ^.^
Hi,
It seems like the "skip kanji" setting in the Japanese courses and "skip kana" in the Japanese kanji courses are tied together. Turning off one also turns off the other.
I want to review kanji that I've learned the words for in the Japanese courses but not be tested on kanji readings in the kanji courses yet. Right now, the only way to do that is to start a watering session and switch depending on which set of words I'm working on at the moment. I often forget to turn the kanji review back on when working in the sets that I want kanji reviews in.
It seems like the "skip kanji" setting in the Japanese courses and "skip kana" in the Japanese kanji courses are tied together. Turning off one also turns off the other.
I want to review kanji that I've learned the words for in the Japanese courses but not be tested on kanji readings in the kanji courses yet. Right now, the only way to do that is to start a watering session and switch depending on which set of words I'm working on at the moment. I often forget to turn the kanji review back on when working in the sets that I want kanji reviews in.
0 comments
I'm wondering if it's at all possible to have memrise use kana exclusively when testing for kanji. Learning english definitions is a pointless endeavor for me.
0 comments
I've put up the Kore vocabulary list! This is a pretty popular and very complete list!
All 5988 words have their English, Japanese and Kanji put up. Some of the definitions are a bit vague or off, but they're all formatted correctly.
Example sentences and sounds for every single card can be found here:
https://sites.google.com/si...
If anyone would like to take part in the daunting task of uploading all of these sentences and sounds, that would be amazing. I've already done a dozen or so words as a sample.
All 5988 words have their English, Japanese and Kanji put up. Some of the definitions are a bit vague or off, but they're all formatted correctly.
Example sentences and sounds for every single card can be found here:
https://sites.google.com/si...
If anyone would like to take part in the daunting task of uploading all of these sentences and sounds, that would be amazing. I've already done a dozen or so words as a sample.
10 comments
Latest 2 months, 1 week ago
benwhately 5 months, 2 weeks ago
This is great start, thanks!It will be really useful if we can co-ordinate this with the work that people are doing on the N2 list - there is a lot of overlap in the vocabulary, so if the words are in one list we should make sure that we only need to check/edit them once. And that if sample sentences are added to one list, they appear on all lists that use those words. In fact it might be worth switching the topic of your wordset to the "Japanese - memrise" topic while we get all the database straight - then we are going to use the words in that set as the core of the "Japanese" topic. So it would be great to have your words as a part of that. Have you looked at the discussion s on the N2 list? - http://www.memrise.com/topi... question - a minor point - the way that the conventions suggest adding definitions is that the primary definition should only contain a single definition, and then that the alternative definitions should be separated by semi colons in the "alternative definition" field. The problem is that if there are multiple definitions in the primary definition field separated by semi colons, you will have to type out all of the definitions in order to be marked right. Does that make sense? Is that something easy to fix? This is one of the things that is being edited in the N2 list, so perhaps once that list is edited, we can merge the words with the ones in this list, and then that will get most of the done. Does that sound like a good idea?FInally, adding sample sentences is a great idea. For mass uploading audio, we have got a pretty fast system if you have access to a native speaker and a microphone, it can be done really fast. Take a look at the instructions here - http://www.memrise.com/faq/aud...Let me know if that sounds useful.Would you like to become a topic curator for Japanese / Japanese - Memrise? Thanks!
This is great start, thanks!It will be really useful if we can co-ordinate this with the work that people are doing on the N2 list - there is a lot of overlap in the vocabulary, so if the words are in one list we should make sure that we only need to check/edit them once. And that if sample sentences are added to one list, they appear on all lists that use those words. In fact it might be worth switching the topic of your wordset to the "Japanese - memrise" topic while we get all the database straight - then we are going to use the words in that set as the core of the "Japanese" topic. So it would be great to have your words as a part of that. Have you looked at the discussion s on the N2 list? - http://www.memrise.com/topi... question - a minor point - the way that the conventions suggest adding definitions is that the primary definition should only contain a single definition, and then that the alternative definitions should be separated by semi colons in the "alternative definition" field. The problem is that if there are multiple definitions in the primary definition field separated by semi colons, you will have to type out all of the definitions in order to be marked right. Does that make sense? Is that something easy to fix? This is one of the things that is being edited in the N2 list, so perhaps once that list is edited, we can merge the words with the ones in this list, and then that will get most of the done. Does that sound like a good idea?FInally, adding sample sentences is a great idea. For mass uploading audio, we have got a pretty fast system if you have access to a native speaker and a microphone, it can be done really fast. Take a look at the instructions here - http://www.memrise.com/faq/aud...Let me know if that sounds useful.Would you like to become a topic curator for Japanese / Japanese - Memrise? Thanks!
benwhately 5 months, 2 weeks ago
This is great start, thanks!It will be really useful if we can co-ordinate this with the work that people are doing on the N2 list - there is a lot of overlap in the vocabulary, so if the words are in one list we should make sure that we only need to check/edit them once. And that if sample sentences are added to one list, they appear on all lists that use those words. In fact it might be worth switching the topic of your wordset to the "Japanese - memrise" topic while we get all the database straight - then we are going to use the words in that set as the core of the "Japanese" topic. So it would be great to have your words as a part of that. Have you looked at the discussion s on the N2 list? - http://www.memrise.com/topi... question - a minor point - the way that the conventions suggest adding definitions is that the primary definition should only contain a single definition, and then that the alternative definitions should be separated by semi colons in the "alternative definition" field. The problem is that if there are multiple definitions in the primary definition field separated by semi colons, you will have to type out all of the definitions in order to be marked right. Does that make sense? Is that something easy to fix? This is one of the things that is being edited in the N2 list, so perhaps once that list is edited, we can merge the words with the ones in this list, and then that will get most of the done. Does that sound like a good idea?FInally, adding sample sentences is a great idea. For mass uploading audio, we have got a pretty fast system if you have access to a native speaker and a microphone, it can be done really fast. Take a look at the instructions here - http://www.memrise.com/faq/aud...Let me know if that sounds useful.Would you like to become a topic curator for Japanese / Japanese - Memrise? Thanks!
This is great start, thanks!It will be really useful if we can co-ordinate this with the work that people are doing on the N2 list - there is a lot of overlap in the vocabulary, so if the words are in one list we should make sure that we only need to check/edit them once. And that if sample sentences are added to one list, they appear on all lists that use those words. In fact it might be worth switching the topic of your wordset to the "Japanese - memrise" topic while we get all the database straight - then we are going to use the words in that set as the core of the "Japanese" topic. So it would be great to have your words as a part of that. Have you looked at the discussion s on the N2 list? - http://www.memrise.com/topi... question - a minor point - the way that the conventions suggest adding definitions is that the primary definition should only contain a single definition, and then that the alternative definitions should be separated by semi colons in the "alternative definition" field. The problem is that if there are multiple definitions in the primary definition field separated by semi colons, you will have to type out all of the definitions in order to be marked right. Does that make sense? Is that something easy to fix? This is one of the things that is being edited in the N2 list, so perhaps once that list is edited, we can merge the words with the ones in this list, and then that will get most of the done. Does that sound like a good idea?FInally, adding sample sentences is a great idea. For mass uploading audio, we have got a pretty fast system if you have access to a native speaker and a microphone, it can be done really fast. Take a look at the instructions here - http://www.memrise.com/faq/aud...Let me know if that sounds useful.Would you like to become a topic curator for Japanese / Japanese - Memrise? Thanks!
Kettuk 5 months, 1 week ago
I can help out with the sample sentences gradually as I go through thevocab myself.
I can help out with the sample sentences gradually as I go through thevocab myself.
Kettuk 5 months, 1 week ago
I can help out with the sample sentences gradually as I go through thevocab myself.
I can help out with the sample sentences gradually as I go through thevocab myself.
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 1 week ago
Nah, not all of them have their Kanji put up. I'm not quite sure yet if I should add them - it's really a shitload (excuse my French). However, as I go through my courses, I sometimes encounter some of the terms also in Kore. Some even pop up in the decks I made, and I always upload audio for every term used in those, so your deck will receive those audio, Kanji and corrected/clarified definitions too.
Nah, not all of them have their Kanji put up. I'm not quite sure yet if I should add them - it's really a shitload (excuse my French). However, as I go through my courses, I sometimes encounter some of the terms also in Kore. Some even pop up in the decks I made, and I always upload audio for every term used in those, so your deck will receive those audio, Kanji and corrected/clarified definitions too.
ikenaiAndi 2 months, 1 week ago
I'd like to add though, that I use your deck, too. Good job. :) It's also a great reference to check if what you just learned is high up in the frequency list. If 3 of the 5 terms you planted in another deck are active in yours now, too, you sure got a lot of bang for your buck.
I'd like to add though, that I use your deck, too. Good job. :) It's also a great reference to check if what you just learned is high up in the frequency list. If 3 of the 5 terms you planted in another deck are active in yours now, too, you sure got a lot of bang for your buck.
Why have all my hard earned points in my Japanese gardens suddenly vanished? Whilst I was in the middle of watering some plants my position was reset from 3,700 and something to 67,000 and something.
It's very demotivating. I do hope you have a way of restoring them. Otherwise I shall quit using the site and warn my Japanese class colleagues. It's embarrassing after bigging-up the site!
It's very demotivating. I do hope you have a way of restoring them. Otherwise I shall quit using the site and warn my Japanese class colleagues. It's embarrassing after bigging-up the site!
6 comments
Latest 2 months, 2 weeks ago
MirkoSon 2 months, 2 weeks ago
This is not about racing with the others, you should just care about how much you learn =)
This is not about racing with the others, you should just care about how much you learn =)
MirkoSon 2 months, 2 weeks ago
This is not about racing with the others, you should just care about how much you learn =)
This is not about racing with the others, you should just care about how much you learn =)
cjosborne 2 months, 2 weeks ago
The day after I posted this comment my position was re-instated. So I guess it was just a glitch in the system. I suppose we must expect this in a beta version of software, but if the aim is to make MEMRISE a commercial success (as well as an excellent learning tool) these things will have to be ironed out.I know it's all about learning outcomes but I find I learn best when there is a competitive edge (if only from my standpoint). I suppose that's why we take exams and strive to get a merit or a first class degree.
The day after I posted this comment my position was re-instated. So I guess it was just a glitch in the system. I suppose we must expect this in a beta version of software, but if the aim is to make MEMRISE a commercial success (as well as an excellent learning tool) these things will have to be ironed out.I know it's all about learning outcomes but I find I learn best when there is a competitive edge (if only from my standpoint). I suppose that's why we take exams and strive to get a merit or a first class degree.
cjosborne 2 months, 2 weeks ago
The day after I posted this comment my position was re-instated. So I guess it was just a glitch in the system. I suppose we must expect this in a beta version of software, but if the aim is to make MEMRISE a commercial success (as well as an excellent learning tool) these things will have to be ironed out.I know it's all about learning outcomes but I find I learn best when there is a competitive edge (if only from my standpoint). I suppose that's why we take exams and strive to get a merit or a first class degree.
The day after I posted this comment my position was re-instated. So I guess it was just a glitch in the system. I suppose we must expect this in a beta version of software, but if the aim is to make MEMRISE a commercial success (as well as an excellent learning tool) these things will have to be ironed out.I know it's all about learning outcomes but I find I learn best when there is a competitive edge (if only from my standpoint). I suppose that's why we take exams and strive to get a merit or a first class degree.
Maybe it's a good idea to somehow separate the courses into different difficulty level. I've finish hiragana and some basic vocab and studying katakana.
15 comments
Latest 2 months, 2 weeks ago
cacoethes 4 months, 4 weeks ago
I agree, there is a lot to sort through! I wish there was a way to show the difficulty level as well.It really depends on what you wish to learn.If you want to learn some more basic vocab, there is a great course under the language "Japanese - Memrise" which has a bunch of vocab from the N5 test. http://www.memrise.com/set/100...If you want to start learning some kanji (which is way more fun to me ^.^), then under the language "Japanese Kanji" start by learning the "building blocks", the radicals, which will help you piece together the meanings of most kanji. http://www.memrise.com/set/100... After that you can start learning some more kanji, and I find it's easiest to start with kanji that only have a few strokes. I made a course that starts with some simple, common kanji that aren't difficult to write. You may find this helpful. http://www.memrise.com/set/100...Other than that, as you are searching through the Japanese language courses, try to look for stuff that says JLPT N5 or N4. Those are going to be the easier ones. They are words from the Japanese Language Proficiency Test, and there are five levels with N1 being the hardest.
I agree, there is a lot to sort through! I wish there was a way to show the difficulty level as well.It really depends on what you wish to learn.If you want to learn some more basic vocab, there is a great course under the language "Japanese - Memrise" which has a bunch of vocab from the N5 test. http://www.memrise.com/set/100...If you want to start learning some kanji (which is way more fun to me ^.^), then under the language "Japanese Kanji" start by learning the "building blocks", the radicals, which will help you piece together the meanings of most kanji. http://www.memrise.com/set/100... After that you can start learning some more kanji, and I find it's easiest to start with kanji that only have a few strokes. I made a course that starts with some simple, common kanji that aren't difficult to write. You may find this helpful. http://www.memrise.com/set/100...Other than that, as you are searching through the Japanese language courses, try to look for stuff that says JLPT N5 or N4. Those are going to be the easier ones. They are words from the Japanese Language Proficiency Test, and there are five levels with N1 being the hardest.
JugHead 4 months, 2 weeks ago
Agree - I'm looking for some basic introductory stuff, and am finding it really hard to filter out the advanced stuff!
Agree - I'm looking for some basic introductory stuff, and am finding it really hard to filter out the advanced stuff!
JugHead 4 months, 2 weeks ago
Agree - I'm looking for some basic introductory stuff, and am finding it really hard to filter out the advanced stuff!
Agree - I'm looking for some basic introductory stuff, and am finding it really hard to filter out the advanced stuff!
twiks 4 months, 1 week ago
Try the core1000 lists, although incomplete they include many of the 1000 most frequent words. I'm studying those courses myself and when I reach the end of the course I'll start filling in the rest of the words.
Try the core1000 lists, although incomplete they include many of the 1000 most frequent words. I'm studying those courses myself and when I reach the end of the course I'll start filling in the rest of the words.
twiks 4 months, 1 week ago
Try the core1000 lists, although incomplete they include many of the 1000 most frequent words. I'm studying those courses myself and when I reach the end of the course I'll start filling in the rest of the words.
Try the core1000 lists, although incomplete they include many of the 1000 most frequent words. I'm studying those courses myself and when I reach the end of the course I'll start filling in the rest of the words.
benwhately 4 months, 1 week ago
The newly-featured "JLPT N5" coures should fit the bill for a basic course. We are going to be adding in the higher levels of the JLPT over the coming weeks. Please let me know how you get on,Best wishesBen
The newly-featured "JLPT N5" coures should fit the bill for a basic course. We are going to be adding in the higher levels of the JLPT over the coming weeks. Please let me know how you get on,Best wishesBen
benwhately 4 months, 1 week ago
The newly-featured "JLPT N5" coures should fit the bill for a basic course. We are going to be adding in the higher levels of the JLPT over the coming weeks. Please let me know how you get on,Best wishesBen
The newly-featured "JLPT N5" coures should fit the bill for a basic course. We are going to be adding in the higher levels of the JLPT over the coming weeks. Please let me know how you get on,Best wishesBen
mrcolj 4 months ago
Came here for exactly the same question. Hit "Japanese" and it gave me hundreds of courses to choose from, so I hit Mandarin because it was a big, 1" round button! Now, a week later, I'd like the Japanese again!
Came here for exactly the same question. Hit "Japanese" and it gave me hundreds of courses to choose from, so I hit Mandarin because it was a big, 1" round button! Now, a week later, I'd like the Japanese again!
mrcolj 4 months ago
Came here for exactly the same question. Hit "Japanese" and it gave me hundreds of courses to choose from, so I hit Mandarin because it was a big, 1" round button! Now, a week later, I'd like the Japanese again!
Came here for exactly the same question. Hit "Japanese" and it gave me hundreds of courses to choose from, so I hit Mandarin because it was a big, 1" round button! Now, a week later, I'd like the Japanese again!
Ravenway 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I found some of the stuff in the JLPT N5 course to be strange, I started with that because most of it is just review. But, the course is...interesting. Like using 青(あお) for immature...I understand that it can work in some context but since it's supposed to be for a basic course...it should probably just be blue. And ええas grr...I've never seen it used like that before. Those were the only strange things I noticed so far though.I hope that more kanji is used in some of the other courses. So far it's been really fun though ^_^ I could do this all day! I would say just pick one of the courses like the Core1000 or something and go for it. Vocab is vocab right? Or if you're studying something like a textbook make your own list based on the chapters.
I found some of the stuff in the JLPT N5 course to be strange, I started with that because most of it is just review. But, the course is...interesting. Like using 青(あお) for immature...I understand that it can work in some context but since it's supposed to be for a basic course...it should probably just be blue. And ええas grr...I've never seen it used like that before. Those were the only strange things I noticed so far though.I hope that more kanji is used in some of the other courses. So far it's been really fun though ^_^ I could do this all day! I would say just pick one of the courses like the Core1000 or something and go for it. Vocab is vocab right? Or if you're studying something like a textbook make your own list based on the chapters.
Ravenway 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I found some of the stuff in the JLPT N5 course to be strange, I started with that because most of it is just review. But, the course is...interesting. Like using 青(あお) for immature...I understand that it can work in some context but since it's supposed to be for a basic course...it should probably just be blue. And ええas grr...I've never seen it used like that before. Those were the only strange things I noticed so far though.I hope that more kanji is used in some of the other courses. So far it's been really fun though ^_^ I could do this all day! I would say just pick one of the courses like the Core1000 or something and go for it. Vocab is vocab right? Or if you're studying something like a textbook make your own list based on the chapters.
I found some of the stuff in the JLPT N5 course to be strange, I started with that because most of it is just review. But, the course is...interesting. Like using 青(あお) for immature...I understand that it can work in some context but since it's supposed to be for a basic course...it should probably just be blue. And ええas grr...I've never seen it used like that before. Those were the only strange things I noticed so far though.I hope that more kanji is used in some of the other courses. So far it's been really fun though ^_^ I could do this all day! I would say just pick one of the courses like the Core1000 or something and go for it. Vocab is vocab right? Or if you're studying something like a textbook make your own list based on the chapters.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I actually think the N5 list has too much kanji (although a few are missing). Kanji for それ、きれい、いつ、really? Even 居る for いる is suspect. If you're fluent or nearly so and want to learn those kanji, go for it, but a beginner is wasting his time on kanji for words that he'll never ever see written that way.I agree with あお and ええ though, and there's also a really out of place word for economy/thrift in there too.
I actually think the N5 list has too much kanji (although a few are missing). Kanji for それ、きれい、いつ、really? Even 居る for いる is suspect. If you're fluent or nearly so and want to learn those kanji, go for it, but a beginner is wasting his time on kanji for words that he'll never ever see written that way.I agree with あお and ええ though, and there's also a really out of place word for economy/thrift in there too.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I actually think the N5 list has too much kanji (although a few are missing). Kanji for それ、きれい、いつ、really? Even 居る for いる is suspect. If you're fluent or nearly so and want to learn those kanji, go for it, but a beginner is wasting his time on kanji for words that he'll never ever see written that way.I agree with あお and ええ though, and there's also a really out of place word for economy/thrift in there too.
I actually think the N5 list has too much kanji (although a few are missing). Kanji for それ、きれい、いつ、really? Even 居る for いる is suspect. If you're fluent or nearly so and want to learn those kanji, go for it, but a beginner is wasting his time on kanji for words that he'll never ever see written that way.I agree with あお and ええ though, and there's also a really out of place word for economy/thrift in there too.
MirkoSon 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Apart from Kanji, I would recommend the Jet Programme's vocabulary lists (Beginner Course, if it's that the case)
Apart from Kanji, I would recommend the Jet Programme's vocabulary lists (Beginner Course, if it's that the case)
MirkoSon 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Apart from Kanji, I would recommend the Jet Programme's vocabulary lists (Beginner Course, if it's that the case)
Apart from Kanji, I would recommend the Jet Programme's vocabulary lists (Beginner Course, if it's that the case)
How do I enter the ~squiggle~ before such suffixes as -kun, -san, -kai etc. The software tells me that my answer is NEARLY correct, when the kana are in fact correct. Help! This is holding me back>
12 comments
Latest 2 months, 2 weeks ago
Suiren 3 months ago
～ = shift + \ (before the number 1 key). At least in my keyboard. I hope it helped.
～ = shift + \ (before the number 1 key). At least in my keyboard. I hope it helped.
Suiren 3 months ago
～ = shift + \ (before the number 1 key). At least in my keyboard. I hope it helped.
～ = shift + \ (before the number 1 key). At least in my keyboard. I hope it helped.
cjosborne 3 months ago
Thank you Suiren. It works fine. I thought I had pressed every combination of keys possible, but I guess I overlooked that one. Many thanks again.
Thank you Suiren. It works fine. I thought I had pressed every combination of keys possible, but I guess I overlooked that one. Many thanks again.
cjosborne 3 months ago
Thank you Suiren. It works fine. I thought I had pressed every combination of keys possible, but I guess I overlooked that one. Many thanks again.
Thank you Suiren. It works fine. I thought I had pressed every combination of keys possible, but I guess I overlooked that one. Many thanks again.
noborichica 2 months, 4 weeks ago
I too am having this problem and have been doing [shift} + [ ` ] (before the 1 key), it shows it as ~, but I am still having problems. Any other suggestions? If I do [shift] + [ \ ] as suggested, I get [ | ] instead. I am using an American keyboard.Thanks for your help!
I too am having this problem and have been doing [shift} + [ ` ] (before the 1 key), it shows it as ~, but I am still having problems. Any other suggestions? If I do [shift] + [ \ ] as suggested, I get [ | ] instead. I am using an American keyboard.Thanks for your help!
noborichica 2 months, 4 weeks ago
I too am having this problem and have been doing [shift} + [ ` ] (before the 1 key), it shows it as ~, but I am still having problems. Any other suggestions? If I do [shift] + [ \ ] as suggested, I get [ | ] instead. I am using an American keyboard.Thanks for your help!
I too am having this problem and have been doing [shift} + [ ` ] (before the 1 key), it shows it as ~, but I am still having problems. Any other suggestions? If I do [shift] + [ \ ] as suggested, I get [ | ] instead. I am using an American keyboard.Thanks for your help!
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 4 weeks ago
In case you look here instead of the General forum, make sure your keyboard is in Japanese mode when you type the tilde. You want to enter ～ and not ~.
In case you look here instead of the General forum, make sure your keyboard is in Japanese mode when you type the tilde. You want to enter ～ and not ~.
TL-ShadowDrgn 2 months, 4 weeks ago
In case you look here instead of the General forum, make sure your keyboard is in Japanese mode when you type the tilde. You want to enter ～ and not ~.
In case you look here instead of the General forum, make sure your keyboard is in Japanese mode when you type the tilde. You want to enter ～ and not ~.
song_mage 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm also having trouble with this. I'm on a Mac, if that means anything. I'm in hiragana mode, and I type 〜, not ~, but it never registers as correct.
I'm also having trouble with this. I'm on a Mac, if that means anything. I'm in hiragana mode, and I type 〜, not ~, but it never registers as correct.
song_mage 2 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm also having trouble with this. I'm on a Mac, if that means anything. I'm in hiragana mode, and I type 〜, not ~, but it never registers as correct.
I'm also having trouble with this. I'm on a Mac, if that means anything. I'm in hiragana mode, and I type 〜, not ~, but it never registers as correct.
I'm unable to seem to type these properly.
e.g. どちら、どっち in the example the comma is written western style like , (I'm not sure if it makes that much of a difference though) so when I write どちら、until there it's all green. Then the moment I write ど for the second word it turns all red. I'm confused, am I doing it wrong?
e.g. どちら、どっち in the example the comma is written western style like , (I'm not sure if it makes that much of a difference though) so when I write どちら、until there it's all green. Then the moment I write ど for the second word it turns all red. I'm confused, am I doing it wrong?
2 comments
Latest 2 months, 3 weeks ago
w4llhugg3r 2 months, 3 weeks ago
I think I've just realized my own mistake. I keep stumping into things that eventually are my own mistake. 面白い
I think I've just realized my own mistake. I keep stumping into things that eventually are my own mistake. 面白い
w4llhugg3r 2 months, 3 weeks ago
I think I've just realized my own mistake. I keep stumping into things that eventually are my own mistake. 面白い
I think I've just realized my own mistake. I keep stumping into things that eventually are my own mistake. 面白い
I have started to create my own course based on words used in Japanese for Busy People 3. I have entered a word with a wrong definition. How do I amend or delete this entry?
2 comments
Latest 2 months, 4 weeks ago
Forxnat 2 months, 4 weeks ago
Erm, as far as I know (because I have not created any courses myself), I would assume that the creators of courses would be able to edit and change their words freely. If not, curators are able to change and make amends to definations in their course sections. :)So just put a post up in your topic forum with the name and new defination of the word for a curator to change it for you.If your still having trouble just let me know.Ill also have a look into courses that you personal create you should be able to adapt it till you see fit. *Kind of like a mini-curator for your topic*EDIT: Just realised I wasn't on the main forums... =p What word are you having trouble with?
Erm, as far as I know (because I have not created any courses myself), I would assume that the creators of courses would be able to edit and change their words freely. If not, curators are able to change and make amends to definations in their course sections. :)So just put a post up in your topic forum with the name and new defination of the word for a curator to change it for you.If your still having trouble just let me know.Ill also have a look into courses that you personal create you should be able to adapt it till you see fit. *Kind of like a mini-curator for your topic*EDIT: Just realised I wasn't on the main forums... =p What word are you having trouble with?
Forxnat 2 months, 4 weeks ago
Erm, as far as I know (because I have not created any courses myself), I would assume that the creators of courses would be able to edit and change their words freely. If not, curators are able to change and make amends to definations in their course sections. :)So just put a post up in your topic forum with the name and new defination of the word for a curator to change it for you.If your still having trouble just let me know.Ill also have a look into courses that you personal create you should be able to adapt it till you see fit. *Kind of like a mini-curator for your topic*EDIT: Just realised I wasn't on the main forums... =p What word are you having trouble with?
Erm, as far as I know (because I have not created any courses myself), I would assume that the creators of courses would be able to edit and change their words freely. If not, curators are able to change and make amends to definations in their course sections. :)So just put a post up in your topic forum with the name and new defination of the word for a curator to change it for you.If your still having trouble just let me know.Ill also have a look into courses that you personal create you should be able to adapt it till you see fit. *Kind of like a mini-curator for your topic*EDIT: Just realised I wasn't on the main forums... =p What word are you having trouble with?
Hi,
I'm new to the memrise, so I hope I am writing to the right place. I have started the hiragana and katakana stack but I have a huge problem with using it. While I can see the signs in the indroductory mems, I cannot see them in the exercieses and get other signs, letters or squares instead. How can I make my computer show the kana?
And second question, how can I write them? Is there a japanese keyboard I can install and find a picture of to learn? (I don't want to put stickers with signs on my keyboard) Or should I use the romaji?
Thanks
I'm new to the memrise, so I hope I am writing to the right place. I have started the hiragana and katakana stack but I have a huge problem with using it. While I can see the signs in the indroductory mems, I cannot see them in the exercieses and get other signs, letters or squares instead. How can I make my computer show the kana?
And second question, how can I write them? Is there a japanese keyboard I can install and find a picture of to learn? (I don't want to put stickers with signs on my keyboard) Or should I use the romaji?
Thanks
4 comments
Latest 3 months, 2 weeks ago
TL-ShadowDrgn 3 months, 3 weeks ago
If you're running Windows, open the Regional and Language options in the Control Panel. From the Keyboards/Languages tab, you can install languages. Older versions will install all east asian languages at once; newer versions will let you pick just Japanese. Follow the prompts, it's not too hard.After you have Japanese language support installed, you need to add the Japanese keyboard and Input Method Editor from the same place in the Control Panel. After adding the Japanese Microsoft IME from there, you should have the language bar installed. Use that to switch your input to Japanese hiragana and then type in romaji. The IME will automatically convert your keystrokes into hiragana, and you can use space to make kanji out of them too. It's pretty intuitive. There is a Japanese kana keyboard layout, but it's completely unnecessary to learn.If you have any difficulties, I'm sure you can google a good tutorial or two.
If you're running Windows, open the Regional and Language options in the Control Panel. From the Keyboards/Languages tab, you can install languages. Older versions will install all east asian languages at once; newer versions will let you pick just Japanese. Follow the prompts, it's not too hard.After you have Japanese language support installed, you need to add the Japanese keyboard and Input Method Editor from the same place in the Control Panel. After adding the Japanese Microsoft IME from there, you should have the language bar installed. Use that to switch your input to Japanese hiragana and then type in romaji. The IME will automatically convert your keystrokes into hiragana, and you can use space to make kanji out of them too. It's pretty intuitive. There is a Japanese kana keyboard layout, but it's completely unnecessary to learn.If you have any difficulties, I'm sure you can google a good tutorial or two.
TL-ShadowDrgn 3 months, 3 weeks ago
If you're running Windows, open the Regional and Language options in the Control Panel. From the Keyboards/Languages tab, you can install languages. Older versions will install all east asian languages at once; newer versions will let you pick just Japanese. Follow the prompts, it's not too hard.After you have Japanese language support installed, you need to add the Japanese keyboard and Input Method Editor from the same place in the Control Panel. After adding the Japanese Microsoft IME from there, you should have the language bar installed. Use that to switch your input to Japanese hiragana and then type in romaji. The IME will automatically convert your keystrokes into hiragana, and you can use space to make kanji out of them too. It's pretty intuitive. There is a Japanese kana keyboard layout, but it's completely unnecessary to learn.If you have any difficulties, I'm sure you can google a good tutorial or two.
If you're running Windows, open the Regional and Language options in the Control Panel. From the Keyboards/Languages tab, you can install languages. Older versions will install all east asian languages at once; newer versions will let you pick just Japanese. Follow the prompts, it's not too hard.After you have Japanese language support installed, you need to add the Japanese keyboard and Input Method Editor from the same place in the Control Panel. After adding the Japanese Microsoft IME from there, you should have the language bar installed. Use that to switch your input to Japanese hiragana and then type in romaji. The IME will automatically convert your keystrokes into hiragana, and you can use space to make kanji out of them too. It's pretty intuitive. There is a Japanese kana keyboard layout, but it's completely unnecessary to learn.If you have any difficulties, I'm sure you can google a good tutorial or two.
TL-njoobee 3 months, 2 weeks ago
hi, i had similar issues with kanji displaying sometimes and sometimes not. I think its an issue with the font/fonts you are using in your browser. Try either a different browser or find the settings for your fonts in your current browser and make sure you choose a font thats able to display them correctly (i just tried a few common ones until i found one that worked without troubles)
hi, i had similar issues with kanji displaying sometimes and sometimes not. I think its an issue with the font/fonts you are using in your browser. Try either a different browser or find the settings for your fonts in your current browser and make sure you choose a font thats able to display them correctly (i just tried a few common ones until i found one that worked without troubles)
TL-njoobee 3 months, 2 weeks ago
hi, i had similar issues with kanji displaying sometimes and sometimes not. I think its an issue with the font/fonts you are using in your browser. Try either a different browser or find the settings for your fonts in your current browser and make sure you choose a font thats able to display them correctly (i just tried a few common ones until i found one that worked without troubles)
hi, i had similar issues with kanji displaying sometimes and sometimes not. I think its an issue with the font/fonts you are using in your browser. Try either a different browser or find the settings for your fonts in your current browser and make sure you choose a font thats able to display them correctly (i just tried a few common ones until i found one that worked without troubles)
I'm studying Core 1000 (part 1). When I typed "jikan" for time, it says that my spelling is nearly correct. I studied using iKnow previously and this is the romaji I'm used to for the word jikan. Therefore can anyone tell me how to correctly enter the word jikan into this course?
4 comments
Latest 3 months, 4 weeks ago
TL-njoobee 3 months, 4 weeks ago
i found that to get some words correct its necessary to add a japanese keyboard to windows. I installed the standard japanese keyboard + the windows IME or whats its called and now can type the hiragana directly, then it accepts the words.
i found that to get some words correct its necessary to add a japanese keyboard to windows. I installed the standard japanese keyboard + the windows IME or whats its called and now can type the hiragana directly, then it accepts the words.
TL-njoobee 3 months, 4 weeks ago
i found that to get some words correct its necessary to add a japanese keyboard to windows. I installed the standard japanese keyboard + the windows IME or whats its called and now can type the hiragana directly, then it accepts the words.
i found that to get some words correct its necessary to add a japanese keyboard to windows. I installed the standard japanese keyboard + the windows IME or whats its called and now can type the hiragana directly, then it accepts the words.
In starting the N2 community edited list, I've noticed that a couple words contain kanji that aren't used much or at all. I'm wondering what everyone else thinks about including these kanji.
The word that spurred me to create this discussion is ちょっと. I've seen this word written at least a thousand times, and I can't recall ever seeing it written 一寸. JDIC lists the word as "usually kana" but that isn't very helpful. There are words that are almost always written in kanji, words that are sometimes kanji and sometimes kana, words that are almost never written in kanji, and words where the kanji is completely archaic.
The problem I see is that learning kanji for words that are virtually never written with those kanji is a waste of time and may lead people to use them inappropriately. However, it's tough to categorize every word. Should the kanji be learned if it's used 1% of the time? 5%?
Other words I've already seen that are tricky:
ご無沙汰 written with the honorific ご as 御. Uncommonly used, but not too rare.
うまい (delicious) has うまい in its kanji field and needs to be fixed. Should it be left blank, or should 美味い or 甘い be used?
The word that spurred me to create this discussion is ちょっと. I've seen this word written at least a thousand times, and I can't recall ever seeing it written 一寸. JDIC lists the word as "usually kana" but that isn't very helpful. There are words that are almost always written in kanji, words that are sometimes kanji and sometimes kana, words that are almost never written in kanji, and words where the kanji is completely archaic.
The problem I see is that learning kanji for words that are virtually never written with those kanji is a waste of time and may lead people to use them inappropriately. However, it's tough to categorize every word. Should the kanji be learned if it's used 1% of the time? 5%?
Other words I've already seen that are tricky:
ご無沙汰 written with the honorific ご as 御. Uncommonly used, but not too rare.
うまい (delicious) has うまい in its kanji field and needs to be fixed. Should it be left blank, or should 美味い or 甘い be used?
2 comments
Latest 4 months ago
cacoethes 4 months ago
Funny you should post this. I was just thinking the same thing today. Would be cool to have the kanji version "hidden" if it's not used often, so you would have to click to view it if you really cared to know about it. Even just having a note saying that JDIC lists it as usually kana would be very helpful.
Funny you should post this. I was just thinking the same thing today. Would be cool to have the kanji version "hidden" if it's not used often, so you would have to click to view it if you really cared to know about it. Even just having a note saying that JDIC lists it as usually kana would be very helpful.
cacoethes 4 months ago
Funny you should post this. I was just thinking the same thing today. Would be cool to have the kanji version "hidden" if it's not used often, so you would have to click to view it if you really cared to know about it. Even just having a note saying that JDIC lists it as usually kana would be very helpful.
Funny you should post this. I was just thinking the same thing today. Would be cool to have the kanji version "hidden" if it's not used often, so you would have to click to view it if you really cared to know about it. Even just having a note saying that JDIC lists it as usually kana would be very helpful.
I wasn't able to find anything regarding this already, hope it hasn't been covered already. There is some terrible inconsistency in the way words are presented in the JLPT N2 vocabulary session. Sometimes a word is written with the pronunciation after it as one word (中々なかなか for example) and sometimes it is properly input under the pronunciation field. This forces me to try and remember how the word was input in excess of trying to remember the actual word. Is there any ongoing effort to remedy this? Sadly I can't fix it myself whenever I encounter it but can only hope the word is input correctly.
2 comments
Latest 4 months, 1 week ago
TL-Ihoku 4 months, 1 week ago
Disregard this topic, it appears the other community edited version of JLPT N2 is just fine so I can do that one instead.
Disregard this topic, it appears the other community edited version of JLPT N2 is just fine so I can do that one instead.
TL-Ihoku 4 months, 1 week ago
Disregard this topic, it appears the other community edited version of JLPT N2 is just fine so I can do that one instead.
Disregard this topic, it appears the other community edited version of JLPT N2 is just fine so I can do that one instead.
Are there any courses that test for the association of kanji, pronunciation, AND meaning? Knowing and associating only two of the three is pointless, but so far that's all I've found. For example, the course I most recently started (in the Japanese - Kanji section) either shows an English word and asks for the kanji, or shows kanji and asks for the English definition.
Is this a weakness of the Memrise testing system itself, or just a weakness of the course I have chosen to take?
Just to be clear, I already know kana, so there's no problem there. For now, I'm interested in learning the kanji that 1st grade students in Japan learn.
Is this a weakness of the Memrise testing system itself, or just a weakness of the course I have chosen to take?
Just to be clear, I already know kana, so there's no problem there. For now, I'm interested in learning the kanji that 1st grade students in Japan learn.
8 comments
Latest 4 months, 3 weeks ago
TL-njoobee 5 months ago
at least some of the chinese courses have pronounciation (from multiple speakers even!), the chinese symbols, the romanized writing asd well as the translation, so its not a problem of memrise itself, its just that so far all japanese courses i´ve tried are really lackluster for beginners or for a complete learning experience.
at least some of the chinese courses have pronounciation (from multiple speakers even!), the chinese symbols, the romanized writing asd well as the translation, so its not a problem of memrise itself, its just that so far all japanese courses i´ve tried are really lackluster for beginners or for a complete learning experience.
TL-njoobee 5 months ago
at least some of the chinese courses have pronounciation (from multiple speakers even!), the chinese symbols, the romanized writing asd well as the translation, so its not a problem of memrise itself, its just that so far all japanese courses i´ve tried are really lackluster for beginners or for a complete learning experience.
at least some of the chinese courses have pronounciation (from multiple speakers even!), the chinese symbols, the romanized writing asd well as the translation, so its not a problem of memrise itself, its just that so far all japanese courses i´ve tried are really lackluster for beginners or for a complete learning experience.
benwhately 5 months ago
Hmm, sorry about this - in the Japanese - Kanji section you should be first tested on the relationship between the kanji and the english meaning, and then once you have harvested the word you will start being tested on the Kana as well. Then you will continue to be tested on all relationships. Is this not what you are finding?There should also be audio for all of the featured courses in the Japanese - Kanji topic. We are working on audio for the main Japanese topic; we are also in the process of uploading a 24,000 word dictionary to that, so all of the content will be in the right format (with kana, definition and kanji). So you will also be tested on all relationships in that topic as well, but instead of starting with Kanji, you will start with kana. I hope that makes sense, please let me know if it is not working as it should.Thanks,Ben
Hmm, sorry about this - in the Japanese - Kanji section you should be first tested on the relationship between the kanji and the english meaning, and then once you have harvested the word you will start being tested on the Kana as well. Then you will continue to be tested on all relationships. Is this not what you are finding?There should also be audio for all of the featured courses in the Japanese - Kanji topic. We are working on audio for the main Japanese topic; we are also in the process of uploading a 24,000 word dictionary to that, so all of the content will be in the right format (with kana, definition and kanji). So you will also be tested on all relationships in that topic as well, but instead of starting with Kanji, you will start with kana. I hope that makes sense, please let me know if it is not working as it should.Thanks,Ben
benwhately 5 months ago
Hmm, sorry about this - in the Japanese - Kanji section you should be first tested on the relationship between the kanji and the english meaning, and then once you have harvested the word you will start being tested on the Kana as well. Then you will continue to be tested on all relationships. Is this not what you are finding?There should also be audio for all of the featured courses in the Japanese - Kanji topic. We are working on audio for the main Japanese topic; we are also in the process of uploading a 24,000 word dictionary to that, so all of the content will be in the right format (with kana, definition and kanji). So you will also be tested on all relationships in that topic as well, but instead of starting with Kanji, you will start with kana. I hope that makes sense, please let me know if it is not working as it should.Thanks,Ben
Hmm, sorry about this - in the Japanese - Kanji section you should be first tested on the relationship between the kanji and the english meaning, and then once you have harvested the word you will start being tested on the Kana as well. Then you will continue to be tested on all relationships. Is this not what you are finding?There should also be audio for all of the featured courses in the Japanese - Kanji topic. We are working on audio for the main Japanese topic; we are also in the process of uploading a 24,000 word dictionary to that, so all of the content will be in the right format (with kana, definition and kanji). So you will also be tested on all relationships in that topic as well, but instead of starting with Kanji, you will start with kana. I hope that makes sense, please let me know if it is not working as it should.Thanks,Ben
Kintak 4 months, 4 weeks ago
So it was a problem with the course I chose to take. I've since switched over to the N5 kanji course.However, now there's a new problem. The testing of the pronunciation is a bit inconsistent about what it wants. For example, for 円 it accepted "en" and gave me points for it. However, for 火, it told me to write out the kana when I typed in "ka". It did the same when I typed in カ. When I typed か, it merely told me I was wrong and moved on to the next one. I assume this means that it wanted "hi" or ひ. It would be nice if it told me what the preferred pronunciation of the kanji was beforehand.
So it was a problem with the course I chose to take. I've since switched over to the N5 kanji course.However, now there's a new problem. The testing of the pronunciation is a bit inconsistent about what it wants. For example, for 円 it accepted "en" and gave me points for it. However, for 火, it told me to write out the kana when I typed in "ka". It did the same when I typed in カ. When I typed か, it merely told me I was wrong and moved on to the next one. I assume this means that it wanted "hi" or ひ. It would be nice if it told me what the preferred pronunciation of the kanji was beforehand.
Kintak 4 months, 4 weeks ago
So it was a problem with the course I chose to take. I've since switched over to the N5 kanji course.However, now there's a new problem. The testing of the pronunciation is a bit inconsistent about what it wants. For example, for 円 it accepted "en" and gave me points for it. However, for 火, it told me to write out the kana when I typed in "ka". It did the same when I typed in カ. When I typed か, it merely told me I was wrong and moved on to the next one. I assume this means that it wanted "hi" or ひ. It would be nice if it told me what the preferred pronunciation of the kanji was beforehand.
So it was a problem with the course I chose to take. I've since switched over to the N5 kanji course.However, now there's a new problem. The testing of the pronunciation is a bit inconsistent about what it wants. For example, for 円 it accepted "en" and gave me points for it. However, for 火, it told me to write out the kana when I typed in "ka". It did the same when I typed in カ. When I typed か, it merely told me I was wrong and moved on to the next one. I assume this means that it wanted "hi" or ひ. It would be nice if it told me what the preferred pronunciation of the kanji was beforehand.
benwhately 4 months, 3 weeks ago
Thanks for reporting this - it should certainly have accepted both カ and ひ as correct answers, as they are the ones that are in the system. I will look into it for you right away and get it sorted out. Apologies for the inconvenience,Best wishesBen
Thanks for reporting this - it should certainly have accepted both カ and ひ as correct answers, as they are the ones that are in the system. I will look into it for you right away and get it sorted out. Apologies for the inconvenience,Best wishesBen
benwhately 4 months, 3 weeks ago
Thanks for reporting this - it should certainly have accepted both カ and ひ as correct answers, as they are the ones that are in the system. I will look into it for you right away and get it sorted out. Apologies for the inconvenience,Best wishesBen
Thanks for reporting this - it should certainly have accepted both カ and ひ as correct answers, as they are the ones that are in the system. I will look into it for you right away and get it sorted out. Apologies for the inconvenience,Best wishesBen
A wordset based on songs would be awesome: learn the words in the lyrics with memrise + listen to the songs as you go about your day = success!
8 comments
Latest 5 months ago
benwhately 6 months ago
This is a great idea - I would love to see this done. Please let me know if you need any more infrastructure to help to make this happen!
This is a great idea - I would love to see this done. Please let me know if you need any more infrastructure to help to make this happen!
benwhately 6 months ago
This is a great idea - I would love to see this done. Please let me know if you need any more infrastructure to help to make this happen!
This is a great idea - I would love to see this done. Please let me know if you need any more infrastructure to help to make this happen!
SenhorBardell 5 months, 1 week ago
I did some lists back to smart.fm, anki...I'm willing to do music lists here but i cant figure out how to attach any audio/picture to item
I did some lists back to smart.fm, anki...I'm willing to do music lists here but i cant figure out how to attach any audio/picture to item
SenhorBardell 5 months, 1 week ago
I did some lists back to smart.fm, anki...I'm willing to do music lists here but i cant figure out how to attach any audio/picture to item
I did some lists back to smart.fm, anki...I'm willing to do music lists here but i cant figure out how to attach any audio/picture to item
benwhately 5 months, 1 week ago
This would be amazing! It is currently possible to embed an image as the word or definition (although it is not totally straightforward, we are working on making it so). You can also upload sound as the "pronunciation" for the word. How do the sets that you made before work? we would need to think through what would be the best way to make them work really well in the Memrise infrastructure. Let me know if you would like to chat this through some time!
This would be amazing! It is currently possible to embed an image as the word or definition (although it is not totally straightforward, we are working on making it so). You can also upload sound as the "pronunciation" for the word. How do the sets that you made before work? we would need to think through what would be the best way to make them work really well in the Memrise infrastructure. Let me know if you would like to chat this through some time!
benwhately 5 months, 1 week ago
This would be amazing! It is currently possible to embed an image as the word or definition (although it is not totally straightforward, we are working on making it so). You can also upload sound as the "pronunciation" for the word. How do the sets that you made before work? we would need to think through what would be the best way to make them work really well in the Memrise infrastructure. Let me know if you would like to chat this through some time!
This would be amazing! It is currently possible to embed an image as the word or definition (although it is not totally straightforward, we are working on making it so). You can also upload sound as the "pronunciation" for the word. How do the sets that you made before work? we would need to think through what would be the best way to make them work really well in the Memrise infrastructure. Let me know if you would like to chat this through some time!
SenhorBardell 5 months ago
Usually(anki case) i prepare tow sets: first fragmented song(according to lyrics)string of lyricsecond(for kanji workout)wordword soundbesides on smart.fm i post youtube clip along with full lyrics.My anki deck look something like attached images.Also i have a few ideas (including http://popcornjs.org/ and his demo http://katehudsondesign.com/de... ), but i'm still thinking on it, i'll post it later.
Usually(anki case) i prepare tow sets: first fragmented song(according to lyrics)string of lyricsecond(for kanji workout)wordword soundbesides on smart.fm i post youtube clip along with full lyrics.My anki deck look something like attached images.Also i have a few ideas (including http://popcornjs.org/ and his demo http://katehudsondesign.com/de... ), but i'm still thinking on it, i'll post it later.
SenhorBardell 5 months ago
Usually(anki case) i prepare tow sets: first fragmented song(according to lyrics)string of lyricsecond(for kanji workout)wordword soundbesides on smart.fm i post youtube clip along with full lyrics.My anki deck look something like attached images.Also i have a few ideas (including http://popcornjs.org/ and his demo http://katehudsondesign.com/de... ), but i'm still thinking on it, i'll post it later.
Usually(anki case) i prepare tow sets: first fragmented song(according to lyrics)string of lyricsecond(for kanji workout)wordword soundbesides on smart.fm i post youtube clip along with full lyrics.My anki deck look something like attached images.Also i have a few ideas (including http://popcornjs.org/ and his demo http://katehudsondesign.com/de... ), but i'm still thinking on it, i'll post it later.
6 comments
Latest 5 months, 3 weeks ago
hajimeowari 5 months, 3 weeks ago
Excuse the empty main message. Hit "enter" after I typed the subject and it posted.Anyhow, I just want to confirm that the fields have been renamed from "Word" and "Pronunciation" to "Japanese" and "Kanji" for Japanese language lists. The reason I ask, is that the small list I built up now has Kanji where pronunciation belongs and vice-versa. Two questions:1. Will the column names in Excel change along with these changes or do the import rules remain the same as before?2. If it's not too much trouble, could you "swap" the Japanese and Kanji columns in my list (http://www.memrise.com/set/... Thanks,-Brad
Excuse the empty main message. Hit "enter" after I typed the subject and it posted.Anyhow, I just want to confirm that the fields have been renamed from "Word" and "Pronunciation" to "Japanese" and "Kanji" for Japanese language lists. The reason I ask, is that the small list I built up now has Kanji where pronunciation belongs and vice-versa. Two questions:1. Will the column names in Excel change along with these changes or do the import rules remain the same as before?2. If it's not too much trouble, could you "swap" the Japanese and Kanji columns in my list (http://www.memrise.com/set/... Thanks,-Brad
hajimeowari 5 months, 3 weeks ago
Excuse the empty main message. Hit "enter" after I typed the subject and it posted.Anyhow, I just want to confirm that the fields have been renamed from "Word" and "Pronunciation" to "Japanese" and "Kanji" for Japanese language lists. The reason I ask, is that the small list I built up now has Kanji where pronunciation belongs and vice-versa. Two questions:1. Will the column names in Excel change along with these changes or do the import rules remain the same as before?2. If it's not too much trouble, could you "swap" the Japanese and Kanji columns in my list (http://www.memrise.com/set/... Thanks,-Brad
Excuse the empty main message. Hit "enter" after I typed the subject and it posted.Anyhow, I just want to confirm that the fields have been renamed from "Word" and "Pronunciation" to "Japanese" and "Kanji" for Japanese language lists. The reason I ask, is that the small list I built up now has Kanji where pronunciation belongs and vice-versa. Two questions:1. Will the column names in Excel change along with these changes or do the import rules remain the same as before?2. If it's not too much trouble, could you "swap" the Japanese and Kanji columns in my list (http://www.memrise.com/set/... Thanks,-Brad
benwhately 5 months, 3 weeks ago
Hi Brad, sorry about this issue. The reason for this is that the "conventions" that we have for how to add items to the database (http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... state that it should be this way around in this topic. So the "pronunciation" label was in fact an error. If you have been adding the words with the Kana in what is now the kanji field and kanji in the "word" field, then that is in fact the way that the "Japanese - Kanji" topic has been set up. So if you switch your wordlist to that topic then it should work perfectly for you. That way you will continue to be tested first on the kanji and later on the kana. Is that how you would like it to work?Thanks, and please do let me know if you have any trouble with that and I will get it fixed for you.Ben
Hi Brad, sorry about this issue. The reason for this is that the "conventions" that we have for how to add items to the database (http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... state that it should be this way around in this topic. So the "pronunciation" label was in fact an error. If you have been adding the words with the Kana in what is now the kanji field and kanji in the "word" field, then that is in fact the way that the "Japanese - Kanji" topic has been set up. So if you switch your wordlist to that topic then it should work perfectly for you. That way you will continue to be tested first on the kanji and later on the kana. Is that how you would like it to work?Thanks, and please do let me know if you have any trouble with that and I will get it fixed for you.Ben
benwhately 5 months, 3 weeks ago
Hi Brad, sorry about this issue. The reason for this is that the "conventions" that we have for how to add items to the database (http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... state that it should be this way around in this topic. So the "pronunciation" label was in fact an error. If you have been adding the words with the Kana in what is now the kanji field and kanji in the "word" field, then that is in fact the way that the "Japanese - Kanji" topic has been set up. So if you switch your wordlist to that topic then it should work perfectly for you. That way you will continue to be tested first on the kanji and later on the kana. Is that how you would like it to work?Thanks, and please do let me know if you have any trouble with that and I will get it fixed for you.Ben
Hi Brad, sorry about this issue. The reason for this is that the "conventions" that we have for how to add items to the database (http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... state that it should be this way around in this topic. So the "pronunciation" label was in fact an error. If you have been adding the words with the Kana in what is now the kanji field and kanji in the "word" field, then that is in fact the way that the "Japanese - Kanji" topic has been set up. So if you switch your wordlist to that topic then it should work perfectly for you. That way you will continue to be tested first on the kanji and later on the kana. Is that how you would like it to work?Thanks, and please do let me know if you have any trouble with that and I will get it fixed for you.Ben
hajimeowari 5 months, 3 weeks ago
Hey Ben, No problem. Thank you for your response. I must have missed the "Japanese - Kanji" topic! I also just recalled that you had the uploader fixed as well, so I should be able to fix any future issues on my own. Thanks again for your quick responses.
Hey Ben, No problem. Thank you for your response. I must have missed the "Japanese - Kanji" topic! I also just recalled that you had the uploader fixed as well, so I should be able to fix any future issues on my own. Thanks again for your quick responses.
hajimeowari 5 months, 3 weeks ago
Hey Ben, No problem. Thank you for your response. I must have missed the "Japanese - Kanji" topic! I also just recalled that you had the uploader fixed as well, so I should be able to fix any future issues on my own. Thanks again for your quick responses.
Hey Ben, No problem. Thank you for your response. I must have missed the "Japanese - Kanji" topic! I also just recalled that you had the uploader fixed as well, so I should be able to fix any future issues on my own. Thanks again for your quick responses.
Quite a few people have been wanting to get involved in editing and improving the N2 list. I have just started a discussion [here](http://www.memrise.com/topic/japanese-memrise/forum/822/n2-list-editing-etc/?created=1) outlining how we might get this started.
####So please, anyone who is interested in helping to grow and improve the Japanese content, please head over [there](http://www.memrise.com/topic/japanese-memrise/forum/822/n2-list-editing-etc/?created=1) and get involved!
It is in the Japanese - memrise topic as this is the topic that we are using to curate all the content while we get it into the correct format etc according to the [Japanese Conventions](http://www.memrise.com/faq/japanese/)
####So please, anyone who is interested in helping to grow and improve the Japanese content, please head over [there](http://www.memrise.com/topic/japanese-memrise/forum/822/n2-list-editing-etc/?created=1) and get involved!
It is in the Japanese - memrise topic as this is the topic that we are using to curate all the content while we get it into the correct format etc according to the [Japanese Conventions](http://www.memrise.com/faq/japanese/)
4 comments
Latest 5 months, 4 weeks ago
aliengeng 5 months, 4 weeks ago
hey can I get involved? I'll check the link, too, but just voicing my willingness.
hey can I get involved? I'll check the link, too, but just voicing my willingness.
aliengeng 5 months, 4 weeks ago
hey can I get involved? I'll check the link, too, but just voicing my willingness.
hey can I get involved? I'll check the link, too, but just voicing my willingness.
benwhately 5 months, 4 weeks ago
You certainly can! Just head over to the link and get involved with the discussion!Thanks,Ben
You certainly can! Just head over to the link and get involved with the discussion!Thanks,Ben
benwhately 5 months, 4 weeks ago
You certainly can! Just head over to the link and get involved with the discussion!Thanks,Ben
You certainly can! Just head over to the link and get involved with the discussion!Thanks,Ben
When a test question is answered correctly, it will display the Kanji (if available) in the top right. I find this to be a useful reminder for associating Kana and Kanji.
If the question provides Kanji or the answer to a question is Kanji, then the reminder still occurs and is redundant. In these situations, the reminder could be changed to the Kana of the word instead.
Examples:
Helpful: http://imgur.com/y0ujJ
Redundant: http://imgur.com/XSKBr
Does anyone know if this also occurs in other languages? (for words with a pronunciation)
If the question provides Kanji or the answer to a question is Kanji, then the reminder still occurs and is redundant. In these situations, the reminder could be changed to the Kana of the word instead.
Examples:
Helpful: http://imgur.com/y0ujJ
Redundant: http://imgur.com/XSKBr
Does anyone know if this also occurs in other languages? (for words with a pronunciation)
2 comments
Latest 6 months ago
benwhately 6 months ago
Yes, you are completely right - this does occur in the Chinese and it does also need to be fixed there. We have got a packed week coming up now, but we will hopefully be able to get this done at the start of December.Thanks for the suggestion!
Yes, you are completely right - this does occur in the Chinese and it does also need to be fixed there. We have got a packed week coming up now, but we will hopefully be able to get this done at the start of December.Thanks for the suggestion!
benwhately 6 months ago
Yes, you are completely right - this does occur in the Chinese and it does also need to be fixed there. We have got a packed week coming up now, but we will hopefully be able to get this done at the start of December.Thanks for the suggestion!
Yes, you are completely right - this does occur in the Chinese and it does also need to be fixed there. We have got a packed week coming up now, but we will hopefully be able to get this done at the start of December.Thanks for the suggestion!
Hiho,
This is a rather weird question but ill ask anyway ;)
I have a little problem. I started today and wanted to start with Japanese. The first thing i noticed, is that there is not pronouncing (donno maybe it will come later, after all for some languages its just a beta). So i know what these signs mean, but can´t really speak them.
The other part is (which is why I opened this Threat) that i don´t have a Japanese Keyboard. i know you can change the Language settings in you windows System settings, but still it would take like years till i find the sign i am asked for.
So are there any ways you can help me with that? Any kind of easy label or a describtion on how a Japanese keyboard layout is?
I hope my english is understandable ;) thanks a lot this site rocks ;)
kind regards from germany ;)
Synthien
This is a rather weird question but ill ask anyway ;)
I have a little problem. I started today and wanted to start with Japanese. The first thing i noticed, is that there is not pronouncing (donno maybe it will come later, after all for some languages its just a beta). So i know what these signs mean, but can´t really speak them.
The other part is (which is why I opened this Threat) that i don´t have a Japanese Keyboard. i know you can change the Language settings in you windows System settings, but still it would take like years till i find the sign i am asked for.
So are there any ways you can help me with that? Any kind of easy label or a describtion on how a Japanese keyboard layout is?
I hope my english is understandable ;) thanks a lot this site rocks ;)
kind regards from germany ;)
Synthien
8 comments
Latest 6 months, 2 weeks ago
AlexYuuki 6 months, 2 weeks ago
I have the same problem, I have to skip the parts where I have to type in the word(s) due to me not possessing a Japanese keyboard :(, I hope somebody can answer!
I have the same problem, I have to skip the parts where I have to type in the word(s) due to me not possessing a Japanese keyboard :(, I hope somebody can answer!
AlexYuuki 6 months, 2 weeks ago
I have the same problem, I have to skip the parts where I have to type in the word(s) due to me not possessing a Japanese keyboard :(, I hope somebody can answer!
I have the same problem, I have to skip the parts where I have to type in the word(s) due to me not possessing a Japanese keyboard :(, I hope somebody can answer!
benwhately 6 months, 2 weeks ago
Hi Synthien, thank you very much for this post - it has put pressure on me to fix this up. I am going to sort out a set for learning the Kana ASAP. At the moment if you go to the Japanese FAQ - http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... you will see a bit of an introduction to how to get your keyboard to write in Japanese once you know the phonetic alphabets. I will post again when I have got the kana sets fixed up.Thanks!Ben
Hi Synthien, thank you very much for this post - it has put pressure on me to fix this up. I am going to sort out a set for learning the Kana ASAP. At the moment if you go to the Japanese FAQ - http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... you will see a bit of an introduction to how to get your keyboard to write in Japanese once you know the phonetic alphabets. I will post again when I have got the kana sets fixed up.Thanks!Ben
benwhately 6 months, 2 weeks ago
Hi Synthien, thank you very much for this post - it has put pressure on me to fix this up. I am going to sort out a set for learning the Kana ASAP. At the moment if you go to the Japanese FAQ - http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... you will see a bit of an introduction to how to get your keyboard to write in Japanese once you know the phonetic alphabets. I will post again when I have got the kana sets fixed up.Thanks!Ben
Hi Synthien, thank you very much for this post - it has put pressure on me to fix this up. I am going to sort out a set for learning the Kana ASAP. At the moment if you go to the Japanese FAQ - http://www.memrise.com/faq/jap... you will see a bit of an introduction to how to get your keyboard to write in Japanese once you know the phonetic alphabets. I will post again when I have got the kana sets fixed up.Thanks!Ben
Synthien 6 months, 2 weeks ago
i managed to configure it under Windows 7 ... Here is a small "how to".At first you need to install the Japanese Language. This can be done under system configuration -> region and LanguageIf you configure something here it should tell you to install the language first (after installation some Windows Systems need to reboot)then you can go to region and language again. Here is a tab called Keyboard and Language. There is a button to the Keyboard Settings.In the Keyboard settings you can Klick add. search for Japanese language and add it. I added the Microsoft-IME. the normal Japanese Configuration didn´t work quite for me. I managed to type but i think it was only Katagana. Not sure. If you use the Microsoft-IME you get the same panel that jlptbootcamp describes in his tutorial. I hope this helps for now. I am now getting used to it and it will take a lot of time.this is an image of the japanese Keyboard layout. Enjoy and have fun;)Kind regards Synthienhttp://www.forlanglab.lsu.edu/...
i managed to configure it under Windows 7 ... Here is a small "how to".At first you need to install the Japanese Language. This can be done under system configuration -> region and LanguageIf you configure something here it should tell you to install the language first (after installation some Windows Systems need to reboot)then you can go to region and language again. Here is a tab called Keyboard and Language. There is a button to the Keyboard Settings.In the Keyboard settings you can Klick add. search for Japanese language and add it. I added the Microsoft-IME. the normal Japanese Configuration didn´t work quite for me. I managed to type but i think it was only Katagana. Not sure. If you use the Microsoft-IME you get the same panel that jlptbootcamp describes in his tutorial. I hope this helps for now. I am now getting used to it and it will take a lot of time.this is an image of the japanese Keyboard layout. Enjoy and have fun;)Kind regards Synthienhttp://www.forlanglab.lsu.edu/...
Synthien 6 months, 2 weeks ago
i managed to configure it under Windows 7 ... Here is a small "how to".At first you need to install the Japanese Language. This can be done under system configuration -> region and LanguageIf you configure something here it should tell you to install the language first (after installation some Windows Systems need to reboot)then you can go to region and language again. Here is a tab called Keyboard and Language. There is a button to the Keyboard Settings.In the Keyboard settings you can Klick add. search for Japanese language and add it. I added the Microsoft-IME. the normal Japanese Configuration didn´t work quite for me. I managed to type but i think it was only Katagana. Not sure. If you use the Microsoft-IME you get the same panel that jlptbootcamp describes in his tutorial. I hope this helps for now. I am now getting used to it and it will take a lot of time.this is an image of the japanese Keyboard layout. Enjoy and have fun;)Kind regards Synthienhttp://www.forlanglab.lsu.edu/...
i managed to configure it under Windows 7 ... Here is a small "how to".At first you need to install the Japanese Language. This can be done under system configuration -> region and LanguageIf you configure something here it should tell you to install the language first (after installation some Windows Systems need to reboot)then you can go to region and language again. Here is a tab called Keyboard and Language. There is a button to the Keyboard Settings.In the Keyboard settings you can Klick add. search for Japanese language and add it. I added the Microsoft-IME. the normal Japanese Configuration didn´t work quite for me. I managed to type but i think it was only Katagana. Not sure. If you use the Microsoft-IME you get the same panel that jlptbootcamp describes in his tutorial. I hope this helps for now. I am now getting used to it and it will take a lot of time.this is an image of the japanese Keyboard layout. Enjoy and have fun;)Kind regards Synthienhttp://www.forlanglab.lsu.edu/...
I`ve started entering mnemonics into the JLPT N5 deck.
Has anyone else entered or found a good deck for Japanese vocab mnemonics?
Has anyone else entered or found a good deck for Japanese vocab mnemonics?
4 comments
Latest 6 months, 2 weeks ago
pvwg 6 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm not sure about the sets and stuff or if you're ok with learning outside of memrise, but I recently found this here: https://chrome.google.com/webs... (only works in Google Chrome though.)Looks good!!
I'm not sure about the sets and stuff or if you're ok with learning outside of memrise, but I recently found this here: https://chrome.google.com/webs... (only works in Google Chrome though.)Looks good!!
pvwg 6 months, 2 weeks ago
I'm not sure about the sets and stuff or if you're ok with learning outside of memrise, but I recently found this here: https://chrome.google.com/webs... (only works in Google Chrome though.)Looks good!!
I'm not sure about the sets and stuff or if you're ok with learning outside of memrise, but I recently found this here: https://chrome.google.com/webs... (only works in Google Chrome though.)Looks good!!
benwhately 6 months, 2 weeks ago
We have got a pretty good covering of mems for the Kanji sets here http://www.memrise.com/topic/j... and we are going to be building up the mems in the main Japanese set. At the moment the best covering is probably in the Japanese - Memrise topic, where we are building up a database of Japanese content that is being checked and entered according to the best format for the Memrise system. Soon we will move this into the main Japanese topic, but until then you can find it here http://www.memrise.com/topic/j... Please let me know if you have any ideas for how we can make that better. Thanks!
We have got a pretty good covering of mems for the Kanji sets here http://www.memrise.com/topic/j... and we are going to be building up the mems in the main Japanese set. At the moment the best covering is probably in the Japanese - Memrise topic, where we are building up a database of Japanese content that is being checked and entered according to the best format for the Memrise system. Soon we will move this into the main Japanese topic, but until then you can find it here http://www.memrise.com/topic/j... Please let me know if you have any ideas for how we can make that better. Thanks!
benwhately 6 months, 2 weeks ago
We have got a pretty good covering of mems for the Kanji sets here http://www.memrise.com/topic/j... and we are going to be building up the mems in the main Japanese set. At the moment the best covering is probably in the Japanese - Memrise topic, where we are building up a database of Japanese content that is being checked and entered according to the best format for the Memrise system. Soon we will move this into the main Japanese topic, but until then you can find it here http://www.memrise.com/topic/j... Please let me know if you have any ideas for how we can make that better. Thanks!
We have got a pretty good covering of mems for the Kanji sets here http://www.memrise.com/topic/j... and we are going to be building up the mems in the main Japanese set. At the moment the best covering is probably in the Japanese - Memrise topic, where we are building up a database of Japanese content that is being checked and entered according to the best format for the Memrise system. Soon we will move this into the main Japanese topic, but until then you can find it here http://www.memrise.com/topic/j... Please let me know if you have any ideas for how we can make that better. Thanks!
Do any of the Japanese word lists reliably explain for an English speaker how to pronounce the words in Japanese.
4 comments
Latest 7 months, 1 week ago
mkstl 7 months, 1 week ago
If you haven't, you should really learn the kana (http://learnthekana.com/) b... investing much time learning anything else. One reason is that it's key in the Japanese writing system, also, learning the kana does help with pronunciation, as you'll fund yourself splitting words into syllables.However, if your problem is just pronunciation, luckily, Japanese has a very standard tone (well... not entirely accurate...)The only decently complicated part is their "r" sound. This video helped a lot... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...For general pronunciation, this helped too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
If you haven't, you should really learn the kana (http://learnthekana.com/) b... investing much time learning anything else. One reason is that it's key in the Japanese writing system, also, learning the kana does help with pronunciation, as you'll fund yourself splitting words into syllables.However, if your problem is just pronunciation, luckily, Japanese has a very standard tone (well... not entirely accurate...)The only decently complicated part is their "r" sound. This video helped a lot... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...For general pronunciation, this helped too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
mkstl 7 months, 1 week ago
If you haven't, you should really learn the kana (http://learnthekana.com/) b... investing much time learning anything else. One reason is that it's key in the Japanese writing system, also, learning the kana does help with pronunciation, as you'll fund yourself splitting words into syllables.However, if your problem is just pronunciation, luckily, Japanese has a very standard tone (well... not entirely accurate...)The only decently complicated part is their "r" sound. This video helped a lot... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...For general pronunciation, this helped too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
If you haven't, you should really learn the kana (http://learnthekana.com/) b... investing much time learning anything else. One reason is that it's key in the Japanese writing system, also, learning the kana does help with pronunciation, as you'll fund yourself splitting words into syllables.However, if your problem is just pronunciation, luckily, Japanese has a very standard tone (well... not entirely accurate...)The only decently complicated part is their "r" sound. This video helped a lot... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...For general pronunciation, this helped too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
rbarlow 7 months, 1 week ago
Thank you mkst14. That is very helpful. Perhaps I should have worked it out for myself but you have pointed me in the right direction.
Thank you mkst14. That is very helpful. Perhaps I should have worked it out for myself but you have pointed me in the right direction.
rbarlow 7 months, 1 week ago
Thank you mkst14. That is very helpful. Perhaps I should have worked it out for myself but you have pointed me in the right direction.
Thank you mkst14. That is very helpful. Perhaps I should have worked it out for myself but you have pointed me in the right direction.
