Norwegian conventions

The conventions can be found here(http://www.memrise.com/faq/norwegian/). Please take a look at them and make any comments on this thread. Then we can make the edits once there is some agreement.

Thanks!

Posted by memrise_ 12/5/11, last update 12/10/11 (2 years ago)
  • I received this comment via email, so am re-posting it here, so that the discussion can be held as openly as possible. So please let me know your thoughts!:"Norwegian Bokmål and Nynorsk are both official languages, not dialects. They both know the female form "ei"/"-a" in addition to the common form, but in Bokmål you can officially use the common form anywhere you would use the female form. The practice of using common or feminine differs among the regional dialects and the words themselves. Many more people will say "ei jente" (a girl, f.) than "ei bok" (a book, f.), just because it is more natural to use a gender on people. But you will encounter everything. So I still think it's a good thing to know which words can take the feminine form. The common form is never incorrect, but the displayed word should read "ei/en jente" to make sure you memorize the feminine possibility."

    Posted by BenWhately Staff   12/5/11 (2 years ago)
  • I received this comment via email, so am re-posting it here, so that the discussion can be held as openly as possible. So please let me know your thoughts!:"Norwegian Bokmål and Nynorsk are both official languages, not dialects. They both know the female form "ei"/"-a" in addition to the common form, but in Bokmål you can officially use the common form anywhere you would use the female form. The practice of using common or feminine differs among the regional dialects and the words themselves. Many more people will say "ei jente" (a girl, f.) than "ei bok" (a book, f.), just because it is more natural to use a gender on people. But you will encounter everything. So I still think it's a good thing to know which words can take the feminine form. The common form is never incorrect, but the displayed word should read "ei/en jente" to make sure you memorize the feminine possibility."

    Posted by BenWhately Staff   12/5/11 (2 years ago)
  • I thought a lot about this when I knocked together the conventions sheet, and understand the concern with usage of the feminine. The reason I chose finally to not include it, was purely because there are many regions where it is not used at all, and for students in those areas, I believe there is really no immediate need for them to be learning an additional gender, especially not at the beginner stage.I think they will soon learn that the feminine gender is used at times, and if serious with their studies, will pick it up as they go along. meanwhile, they cannot go wrong by just using the common forms of the noun, which as you rightly say, are accepted everywhere.. The conventions do have section 2J ( If the noun has a female article, add the word with the female indefinite article as an "alternative norwegian". Eg “ei kvinne” as well as the main “en kvinne”
), so if the student learns the noun as feminine, it will of course be accepted as a correct answer.while 2i is being used, it should include any possible definite article alternatives (although I admit having 2i as a correct answer alternative is not something I ultimately agree with!!!), and perhaps 2K could be changed to include adding also the feminine as a choice for gender, along with neuter and common so that later testing of gender will accept feminine too.. And I admit, perhaps I have underestimated the importance of learning the feminine, and maybe it should be given equal footing, my reasoning was to try and simplify things for the new student, who, if living in somewhere like Bergen, really doesn't need to learn that "bok" is also feminine.. (why confuse them with extra details they don't really need?) at least, and especially, not initially.. (NOTE: I think I can easily be swayed to flow with including the feminine, but am just being a voice of reason to not do so).. let me know what you think..

    Posted by mangodurian 12/5/11 (2 years ago)
  • I thought a lot about this when I knocked together the conventions sheet, and understand the concern with usage of the feminine. The reason I chose finally to not include it, was purely because there are many regions where it is not used at all, and for students in those areas, I believe there is really no immediate need for them to be learning an additional gender, especially not at the beginner stage.I think they will soon learn that the feminine gender is used at times, and if serious with their studies, will pick it up as they go along. meanwhile, they cannot go wrong by just using the common forms of the noun, which as you rightly say, are accepted everywhere.. The conventions do have section 2J ( If the noun has a female article, add the word with the female indefinite article as an "alternative norwegian". Eg “ei kvinne” as well as the main “en kvinne”
), so if the student learns the noun as feminine, it will of course be accepted as a correct answer.while 2i is being used, it should include any possible definite article alternatives (although I admit having 2i as a correct answer alternative is not something I ultimately agree with!!!), and perhaps 2K could be changed to include adding also the feminine as a choice for gender, along with neuter and common so that later testing of gender will accept feminine too.. And I admit, perhaps I have underestimated the importance of learning the feminine, and maybe it should be given equal footing, my reasoning was to try and simplify things for the new student, who, if living in somewhere like Bergen, really doesn't need to learn that "bok" is also feminine.. (why confuse them with extra details they don't really need?) at least, and especially, not initially.. (NOTE: I think I can easily be swayed to flow with including the feminine, but am just being a voice of reason to not do so).. let me know what you think..

    Posted by mangodurian 12/5/11 (2 years ago)
  • I vote for displaying the feminine. With the common form being correct, the student does not have to learn it - but they might pick it up without extra effort, just because it is visible.

    Posted by relet 12/8/11 (2 years ago)
  • I vote for displaying the feminine. With the common form being correct, the student does not have to learn it - but they might pick it up without extra effort, just because it is visible.

    Posted by relet 12/8/11 (2 years ago)
  • I would agree, if was just a case of showing the feminine without really being forced to learn it, then for sure, I'd go with that.. however, what the above comment suggests, is that "a book" be translated as "ei/en book", which would mean you WOULD definitely be learning the feminine too, even if you don't need or necessarily want to.  Although.. on second thoughts.. this could be doable.. if we just show "ei/en bok" as the main entry, but list "ei bok" and "en book" as alternatives, then yes.. I think this would be the way to go..

    Posted by mangodurian 12/8/11 (2 years ago)
  • I would agree, if was just a case of showing the feminine without really being forced to learn it, then for sure, I'd go with that.. however, what the above comment suggests, is that "a book" be translated as "ei/en book", which would mean you WOULD definitely be learning the feminine too, even if you don't need or necessarily want to.  Although.. on second thoughts.. this could be doable.. if we just show "ei/en bok" as the main entry, but list "ei bok" and "en book" as alternatives, then yes.. I think this would be the way to go..

    Posted by mangodurian 12/8/11 (2 years ago)
  • OK.. I propose the following changes to the NOUN section of the FAQS.. 2. Nounsa). always in singular form, (except if they are always used in the plural)b). always with their indefinite articles (except if no article is used, or the definite article is always used)c). add the Norwegian (with the indefinite article) to the “Norwegian” field. eg:. (neuter) et barn. (common only) en gutt. (and in cases where a feminine alternative also exists) en/ei jente
d). add the English (with the indefinite article) to the "English" field.e). add the English with no article as an "alternative English," and append it with an underscore _ .
This will mean that this will be accepted as a correct answer but will not be displayed as a meaning during a learning session (which other alternatives will be, very soon, once two-way testing has been introduced.)NOTE: do not do this if by removing the article, you change the meaning of the word (ie, a little should not be alternatively listed as “little”).f). add the English with the definite article as an alternative English, append it with an underscore.g). add the Norwegian without the article as an "alternative norwegian". append with underscore.h). add the Norwegian with the definite article as an “alternative norwegian”. append with underscore. (more than one entry if a feminine alternative exists). i). If the noun has a female article and is listed in the main entry as en/ei, then add 2 separate entries as "alternative norwegian". eg: . ei kvinne. en kvinne
j). add the gender in the gender field. (ie not in parenthesis after the word!) examples:. for "et barn" write "neuter". for "en gutt" write "common". for "en/ei jente" write "common; feminine"k). for part of speech, choose "noun"

Ben, please note 2j, - how will that work having 2 genders listed in the gender field?? might it cause problems when later gender testing is introduced?? (we'd need for both common and feminine to be accepted as valid answers!).kind regards,mango

    Posted by mangodurian 12/10/11 (2 years ago)
  • OK.. I propose the following changes to the NOUN section of the FAQS.. 2. Nounsa). always in singular form, (except if they are always used in the plural)b). always with their indefinite articles (except if no article is used, or the definite article is always used)c). add the Norwegian (with the indefinite article) to the “Norwegian” field. eg:. (neuter) et barn. (common only) en gutt. (and in cases where a feminine alternative also exists) en/ei jente
d). add the English (with the indefinite article) to the "English" field.e). add the English with no article as an "alternative English," and append it with an underscore _ .
This will mean that this will be accepted as a correct answer but will not be displayed as a meaning during a learning session (which other alternatives will be, very soon, once two-way testing has been introduced.)NOTE: do not do this if by removing the article, you change the meaning of the word (ie, a little should not be alternatively listed as “little”).f). add the English with the definite article as an alternative English, append it with an underscore.g). add the Norwegian without the article as an "alternative norwegian". append with underscore.h). add the Norwegian with the definite article as an “alternative norwegian”. append with underscore. (more than one entry if a feminine alternative exists). i). If the noun has a female article and is listed in the main entry as en/ei, then add 2 separate entries as "alternative norwegian". eg: . ei kvinne. en kvinne
j). add the gender in the gender field. (ie not in parenthesis after the word!) examples:. for "et barn" write "neuter". for "en gutt" write "common". for "en/ei jente" write "common; feminine"k). for part of speech, choose "noun"

Ben, please note 2j, - how will that work having 2 genders listed in the gender field?? might it cause problems when later gender testing is introduced?? (we'd need for both common and feminine to be accepted as valid answers!).kind regards,mango

    Posted by mangodurian 12/10/11 (2 years ago)

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